This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Now we get to the nub of the argument, Aldwick. At what point do we say "The price is Right".
Before we start, let us be clear on a couple of points. More Iraqis have died at the hands of Saddam than because of Allied military action. More Iraqis have died as a result of the actions of the post war "freedom fighters" than were killed by allied actions.
So, logically, this leads us to presume that the least guilty are the invading allies. It also leads us to assume that the death toll may have been lower, short term, if we had not intervened, but would have continued unabated for much longer, and therefore been higher in the longer term. The unrest and violence you see now is not a result of allied occupation. It is a result of the warring factions within that society trying to fill the void left by the dictator, adn would have happened no matter how saddam went, be that otherthrow, capture or death of old age. it was inevitable that a civil war would erupt as his supporters fought with the downtrodden factions who had been victimised for so long.
This logical train of thought leads us to the inevitable conclusion that the demise of the regime would be surrounded by bloodshed regardless of the hows and whens, but the regime was drenched in blood anyway and the longer it survived the greater the total of casualties.
It is not a thought process that will give anybody a lovely warm feeling of a job well done, but it is an accurate desfription of a job that had to be done. Neither is it a comforting thought for those who lost loved ones, but it is a sober fact of having to deal with madmen who shoot and torture people as a game on an otherwise boring Friday afternoon.
I am yet to hear a convincing argument that the world would be better off had the war never happened, but I am open to being convinced.
Alan

ah but who killed the most brits over the 2 gulf wars, the iragis or the US?

Yeah, we know.
Little known fact that during the vietnam war more Americans died of gunshot wounds in America than did in Vietnam!! true!!

Well, I was going to join in here but as it's become an anti-American diatribe of the most predictable kind I don't think I'll bother.

There is something particularly unedifying in a bunch of Brits trying to outdo each other in their verbal abuse, condemnation and villification of the United States.

oh no micro, i think they have a lot to be proud of ..............uuuuuuuuummmmmm........................................ im still thinking and will get back to you. Think your last statement is just little over the top.

MM,
I have not been taking part in an Anti American diatribe. I have been trying to logically argue a point, but I do have a dislike for the Yanks, but that is a seperate matter based on fiscal policy, environmental selfishness and a desire to foist a corrupt culture on the rest of the world.
Alan

Kivver and Alan:

Your posts make my point more eloquently than I ever could.

You want to listen to a proud american Micheal Moorer, he puts it better than i ever could.

or my sporting hero Muhammed Ali.

MM,
You sound as if you are trying to say that to dislike something American is a sin! Surely you could not mean that? I feel certain that you would allow your fellow posters an opinion and not merely reply that their opinion makes them unworthy of any possible hint of intelligence or rationale.
Now i am quite prepared to discuss with anyone why I am no fan of the American Dream, but the level of debate must surely be higher than a starting line of "Anyone saying bad things about America has rocks for brains".
This, however is not the thread to discuss it on. I am just amazed that you feel my pointing out areas of American idealism and philosophy that I disagree with makes me, somehow, an ignorant and rabid anti-american.
Alan

Alan: And where exactly did I say "Anyone saying bad things about America has rocks for brains"? So you don't come over as rabidly anti-American when you make a statement like " but I do have a dislike for the Yanks, but that is a seperate matter based on fiscal policy, environmental selfishness and a desire to foist a corrupt culture on the rest of the world."

Is there anything American that you do like or admire?

So you agree with Micheal then.

No. Michael Moore is a fraud. Rich film producer playing at being the blue-collar "voice of the people". Nauseating man.

He is a man of common sense, a fine man who sees things for they what are and doesnt wrap them up in cotton wool, a truthfull man not afraid to ask difficult questions. He also makes fine films about his own country, a great effort to make people see injustices around the world. But facing up to facts, figures and reality is a hard business.

Good question, MM.
I admire an attitude that all things are possible, given effort and hard work.
I admire some of the natural wonders of that vast continent.
I admire the ability to provide a swift and responsive service to customer needs.
I hate the superiority complex that comes with it.
I hate the ridiculous political correctness that has radiated from its shores.
I hate its treatment of the Cuban people.
I feel I am fairly balanced, though these lists are not exhaustive or inclusive.
Alan

[Commercial break]

I think we should all thank Fred for starting this thread -- it's livened things up around here.

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He has gone into hiding!!

The worlds problems could be solved overnight.

A nice big nuclear warhead sent over to the Middle east thus wiping out Iran,Iraq,Syria,Israel etc etc.

The world would then be a much safer place.

Finally I would also nuke Wales where that scrote Dil resides.

Lets admit defeat then , we Brits and Yanks are dreadful people aren`t we?, yep Let`s put Hussein back in power, give back The Maldives to Argentinia,Yugoslavia to the Generals, put the Iron Curtain back up again, bring back Apartheid , reinstate Idi Amin, dig up Hitler, and put him back in power , ditto the Kaiser.
Let the new Iraq reinvade Kuwait, Iran, and probably Turkey.

In fact lets leave all the lefty prats to fight , and we Brits and Yanks will close our borders, turf out those who don`t want to stay , and go back to a pleasant lifestyle like before the loonies moved in.
Odd how nearly all the protesters come from within the M25 ghetto- the richest area in the UK- boredom I guess.

Get real, get real lives and - oh real jobs too

hopeless.

ps

anybody burning gas /petrol/fuel with blood on it tonight from petroleum inspired wars shoul be tried as an accessory to those wars,hypocricy- thy name is loony left liberalism!!!

geddoutahere- and turn off the 4WD in the suburban drive, - oh and the wifes` Morris Minor ( so coooel on fuuelll) , THE OIL-FIRED tv/dvd/ipod ,central heating - in fact curl up and die of cold.
Why do you think we are so rich? Since WW1 we have gone to war with ANYONE who threatened out trade, Japan threatened the Far East Oil, if you don`t like it here move on, China needs lefties who keep their gobs shut- try it there.
Don`t shout "Down with the death penalty though" , and don`tcarry 500 splifs, that would be undemocratic- oh and fatal.
You have never had it so good in this country, that is why billions want to come here.