Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Oh dear! What do you make of this?

.

Again Fred you didn't answer the question .

I suppose all our young men who were called up to fight in the second world war should have run away to somewhere instead of dying in Europe fighting for your freedom Fred.

You seem to think it's fine for these Syrian lads to run to Europe and leave their women behind.

ah no; that was deemed cowardice or somesuch whereas this is called looking to better yourself and your family

JB,

What I like is when the many warriors who are passed their sell by date are happy to sacrifice others, for their own "needs".

Often volunteering actions which they themselves have no intentions of participating in.

But you can hold up your feathers if you wish to.

-=-=-=-=
Manuel.

I think if you look back a generation or two, you may reason why, some of the reasons your ancestors, or kith and kin, fled to this country and onto other countries for the own "safety" and "benefits".

Of course with money or "wealth" carried in their pockets it was more easier to buy themselves into another safe haven and move on.

I smell hypocrisy!

I thought you would have been grateful for those who died for us Fred ,after all you obviously hate Hitler ,your sounding more like Corbyn every day .

do you now fred

you choose to ignore the fact that the jews in poland for decades and in germany from the 1930s were often treated as untermensch with regular pogroms directed against them

in respect of germany in the 1930s, apart from the obvious like kristallnacht, you also choose to forget that jews were precluded from holding any position outside their enforced ghettoes
of course this included joining the armed forces, notwithstanding that many and perhaps the majority felt themselves to be german first and jews second

while it is true that a very few had assets in precious stones or similar that were easily transportable or managed to buy their way out of nazi germany, this rarely applied to those fleeing poland in earlier decades or even the few who managed to escape the nazis

further, having managed to flee, there was certainly no easy entry into uk as i have posted on several occasions in the past .... and of course there were no easy (state) benefits until after 1948 (i think)

============

by the way, jews who were already uk citizens, assuredly played their part in the armed forces, and did not run away to avoid their duty


identify your alleged hyprocrisy please!

I think Fred's a new age traveller , probably pissed most of the time .

to fred, nearly everything is either red or blue :-)

joking apart, i wonder if he'll actually respond in a focused manner to the above - not his usual slither

JB,

I have more respect for Corbyn and many of his views and stances than Cameron and his cronies.

At the least I think Corbyn attempts to be honest and to consider consequences of actions before implementing them. We will see what he does.

I feel sorrow for the families who lost relatives in WW1, WW2 and other wars.

I have misgivings the hyping of the "heroism" of the actions and those who took part in such episodes and vamped up by armchair heroes for their own reasons, who would do their damnedest to avoid the situations themselves, but prance around the stage as paper-weight leader calling for the sacrifice others. Often calling it, “leadership”. But it is often and attempt to delude others into doing the actions of the "elite".

It seems to me that the present leadership has known first-hand knowledge or field experience of war. Many of the previous political leaders in this country from 1945-2000, did have wartime experience and the last thing they wanted was another “avoidable” war.

I know many families who suffered the long-lasting consequences of war, while some recent political leaders appear to strut and the stage and consider utilisation of a "war", as making their mark on history. One of my cousins was in France preparing for the Normandy landing six months before the actual event and witnessed and took part those actions, before being move on to other parts. He rarely spoke of those experiences but thought it a waste of life. He was lucky and went back to a university career after the event, knowing many of his friends didn’t.

He didn’t consider himself a hero.

The actions he took at the time, he thought were necessary,

Also, I was born before WW2, and remember the maimed WW2 causalities in wheelchairs, as well as those from the Cheshire Homes etc.. Those memories have influenced me more than the heroism.
-====--==-

In general, I have tried not to ask anybody to do that I wouldn’t do myself and consider war to be an unnecessary “evil” and to be avoided when possible. But the reasons for, and the consequences of the avoidance of war have to be considered.

Who has gained from the Iraq war or present war in Syria, or Palestine?

-=-=-=-=

Yes, I am grateful for those who fought against Hitler, in what the majority of people would consider a justifiable war, on the part of Britain and Allies.
-=-=-=

Manuel.

You predecessors had the “wealth” and “know-how” to get into Britain and came to “better” themselves.

You are justifying their actions of emigrating, or fleeing, by the fact they had the means to do so and ? support themselves.

They could have stayed in Poland and fought their corner, and given their lives for the cause and future generations. At the same time you condemn others, Syrians, Romanians, Polish, etc. for attempting the same, unless they are skilled, wealthy or needed. for attempting to do similar.

I think that is where you have double standards.

Sentimental, but!


-=-=-=

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

Manuel

PS.

Manuel, look behind and back on yourself.

The slime you see is of your own making!

You predecessors had the “wealth” and “know-how” to get into Britain and came to “better” themselves.

wrong almost from start to finish
it's all a bit sketchy, for no one would talk about it, but my mother's parents both came from poland and most assuredly neither were wealthy
i'm certain that grandfather came across as the usual stowage class and (i think) started off in glasgow or perhaps l'pool at the turn of 20th century
i think for health reasons (asthma) he eventually ended up in harrogate

my mother's mother's family was already living in leeds at that time, but i don't know the history

by about 1920, my grandfather has set up a shop in harrogate, and in due course, he made a very good business out of it, though it would have been my grandmother who kept tight rein on the finances

his strong support of charities is well-documented

==========

on my father's side, his father was born of hasidic stock in 1889 in a small town near warsaw, and again was assuredly not from a wealthy family, his father dying very poor indeed ..... he came to london in 1905 and to learn a trade became apprenticed as a tailor, working 6 days a week from 7 in the morning until 10 at night, with much less work when times were slack

i don't know the history of my father's mother, but i think she too came from similar "wealth"!

in due course, my grandfather created a very successful business and also heavily supported a number of charities

============

your knowledge of history is reasonably eclectic, so now tell me what cause and/or corner they were meant to fight in poland?

I wrote, "wealth".

Check the meaning.

Also, check what you have written previously.

Also, one would expect from what you have written above that you would have more empathy, compassion and benevolence to those who are fleeing from the "persecution", whether for economic, religious, racial, or political reasons.

Probably, too much to hope for!

But, as is said, "you are a self-made man!"

fred - i don't like to say it, but you're an arsehole .... you tell me to read back what i wrote previously .....well i suggest it is YOU who needs to check back what i wrote a good number of times about the situation TODAY .... or are you such a dummy that i have to repeat it for you yet again, re the massive difference between economic migrants and those who are genuine refugees in fear of their lives? ..... and try to work out for yourself, the difference between the state of the world and europe in 1900 and again in the 1930s and now today (with its cosy welfare state especially in uk)

actually, it's almost certainly far too difficult for you, not least because it won't fit comfortably into your own cuddly utopian little agenda

Now now c!

Fred's entitled to his delusions.

you're right max, and i don't often rise to this sort of snide comment, innuendo and worse, but it certainly makes me cross ..... actually, i'm ashamed of fred, for he's actually quite an intelligent chap but his comments verge on the ignorant in it's most pejorative sense

Manuel,

The difference between economic and political migrants is that in the first the individual and dependents may starve to death and while in the other the individual and dependents are shot or persecuted.

You could face up to any self-deception attempts at face-saving, in order to save yourself from re-evaluating the morality of your opinion.

You appear to chose your position based on what may benefit you materially, rather than what others would consider humanitarian needs of others.

Such is you right.

But it seems to disregard, the "protection" and "kindness" that the UK showed previous members of you family, when they came to this country.

Many of the potential migrants and dependents seem to be in similar situations to your Polish ancestors.

But, of course when you feel safe, you can pull up the drawbridge.

Before hammering the keys try thinking!

LOL Fred, you really are a TxxT. But credit where it is due your good at winding cynic up, he's like a lamb to the slaughter :0)