Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

The sooner Hamas goes the better. Then there will be a chance for peace.
If they stay, all they have to do is renounce violence, stop the rockets and put that into effect and renounce their demands to kill all Jews and drive them out of Israel.
Then a peace settlement will gradually come, just as it did with Egypt and Jordan.
Otherwise bloodshed will continue.
Sad, but inevitable.

Fred has made a knob of himself on this thread (imo!)
If anyone was in 2 minds, as to giving to this cause he champions or not, i'm sure his blinkered nonsense has made their mind up, and like me...they will give nothing.

Does anyone expect the West to sit down with Al Qaeda and negotiate a "peace settlement"?
So why expect Israel to "negotiate" its own destruction with Hamas or Hizbollah?

The woodwork is emptying!

"
Mr Charts.

"I used to be a member of Amnesty International until I realised some years ago the sort of people who run it, their leanings and their politics.
We also used to have a neighbour who worked for Christian Aid and his attitude was the same."

Sir, Andrew Roberts is quite right. Oxfam and others are politically motivated and use natural humanitarian concern as a stick to beat Israel, profiting from their status as charities with their apparent neutrality.
If you hold such opinions of the above bodies, you can see why your views on the Middle East problems are irresolvable.

I would think they would be happy to lose your support.

Fortunately, other than for a minority of people of a similar ilk, the general opinion of the above bodies is very high, as they are dedicated to relieving pain and misery of millions of less fortunate people than us.

It seems American position related to Israel is changing and in the present economic
situation they will reduce the subsidies and economic aid to the State of Israel.

I will wait with interest to see how pans out.

'It seems American position related to Israel is changing and in the present economic situation they will reduce the subsidies and economic aid to the State of Israel.'

Ha Ha! I do believe Mr Obama has given plenty of top jobs to those of the Jewish faith. One of whom is a first generation immigrant. Can't remember his name. Do you really think they are going to watch the Israelis back home suffer. Jeez!

'Fortunately, other than for a minority of people of a similar ilk,' I think you might find the majority tend to remain silent. It is the minority pressure groups who shout loudest.

Have you heard, when Barack offers an olive branch to Iran, Mr Azabinabadlad demands an apology. Get a Grip. edit - the last thing these people want is peace.

Raw,

"It is the minority pressure groups who shout loudest."

"Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings."


laku noć

Interesting way to sign off Fred, are you sure your're Welsh? Good Night.

hope you all wont mind me joining in.clearly you are all interested and concerned,as am i.
anyway maybe some might find the following of worthy of consideration. maybe not.
jew or israeli or should that be israely? i dont know. that is no disrespect intended, i simply dont know.
anyway having read karen's book of the history of god, her bibliography shows or explains that es = born of.
she also confirms that the old god of the caananites being the people that moses led out of egypt was el. es/el might therefore be born of the god of the caananites, that perhaps was represented by the golden calf, perhaps not. that it is accepted that moses was brought up and aware of all the teachings of egypt seems to be believed and accepted by most scholars.
moses created a new nation. did he create a new god? es plus el ?
having been educated in the royal court of egypt did he also include these teachings? the god of egypt being ra and putting the god ra at the centre of all things. put it together and what do we have?
es- ra -el with ra at the centre,
a new religion or simply a new nation?
can the story confirm the reality?
anyone like to comment ?
regards
jkd

Check the genetic makeup of the Palestinians and those living in Israel calling themselves Israelis.

Check the English genes as well. They really are a wild bunch.

Leave the Welsh alone as they are not at war with anybody for a week or so.

But the genes of my wife's and my offspring would be very interesting.

F1
was that a reply to my post ,or someone elses?
ta
regards
jkd

ditto
duplicate to above due to slow button sorry
see my post 653
jkd

I suppose that Ban Ki-Moon is an idiot and duped by what he observed!

Read the whole article.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7857874.stm


UN launches $613m appeal for Gaza


The UN has launched an appeal for $613m to help people affected by Israel's military offensive in Gaza.
"These needs are massive and multi-faceted," the body's top official Ban Ki-Moon said at the World Economic Forum in Davos.
He added that funds would be used to "help overcome at least some measures of this hardship".
The announcement came amid fears of a collapse of unilateral ceasefires by Israel and the Hamas militant group.
Two rockets have been fired at Israel, while Israeli air strikes hit southern Gaza.
UN Secretary-General Mr Ban visited Gaza after the ceasefires; he said help was urgently needed and he had been deeply moved by what he saw.

Fred, ive still got my donation at the ready burning a hole in my purse,
did you manage to dig me out any proof the donations wont end up in terrorists hands?

Ruth,
Send your donation to something worthwhile where the money isn't siphoned off by Hamas murderers who hide behind innocent women and children - like the Alzheimer's Society or the Distressed Gentlefolks Aid Soc........... or my favourite one Help for Heroes which looks after our terribly wounded soldiers who are sneered at in Leatherhead swimming pool because some locals don't like to see amputees.....and which our stinking government won't give enough help to.
Charity begins at home....
There are immensely rich Arab states who can give to Gaza..........

Of course you could also give to Magen David Adom which supplies ambulances etc to Israel. They pick up the casualties and the dead from all the suicide bombings and from the rocket fire from Gaza.
Richard

Charts, I will forever associate you with "the Alzheimer's Society or the Distressed Gentlefolks Aid Soc....".

UN launches $613m appeal for Gaza
Mr Ban said aid was urgently needed in Gaza
The UN has launched an appeal for $613m to help people affected by Israel's military offensive in Gaza.
Charts this is what you are arguing against. Have a look!

Play the video.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/davos/7857874.stm



I would value his opinion a little more than many who have posted on this thread.

It appears I am not alone in my views.

A few facts.

Israeli-Palestinian Fatalities Since 2000 from the beginning of the second intifada until July 2007. Amongst the most notable trends are:
the continuing high rate of fatalities amongst civilians who account for more than half the total of all those killed
the declining number of Israelis killed
a continuing high death rate for Palestinian adults and children particularly in the Gaza Strip
the escalating and changing nature of Palestinians killed from internal violence

Of those killed in the conflict, 4,228 have been Palestinians, 1,024 Israelis, and 63 foreign citizens

The total number of Palestinians, both civilians and combatants killed by the Israeli security forces or Israeli individuals, remains relatively high. In 2007, for example, for every one Israeli death there were 25 Palestinian deaths compared to 2002 when the ratio was 1:2.5.

Most of those killed in the conflict have been civilians not involved in the fighting.

Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007.

In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month.

Of the overall number of children killed, 88% were Palestinian and 12 % were Israeli

Since 2005, there has been a marked increase in the number of Palestinian deaths resulting from internal violence. In 2005, only 4% of the total Palestinian deaths for that year were the result of internal conflict. In 2006, the figures rose to 17% and in 2007, deaths from internal violence accounted for 65% of the total Palestinian death toll.


The Bush/Blair thread all over again, eh Fred? With you most of the way - they'll be frothing at the mouth in the con club, not to mention the character assassination of the most crude sort.

And yet, and yet. Until you concede nastiness of extremists on Palestinian side, you will attract the vitriol -but then that makes for a lively thread, no?

Things can be so complex and so simple. Tit for tat, you started it, it's mine not yours.

Like Ireland, the weaker side will never be forced into submission; the uneasy mix of talk and violence will have to be the way to go until hopefully the violence part diminishes to zero; the US will hopefully make a better job of things than idiot Bush.

however, the rabid politicos on both sides are bad enough, but the major diff between Ireland and this nasty conflict is the vested interest of so many outside parties

Cynic,

I think there are underlying similarities between Northern Ireland and the Middle East problems.

Crudely, at base the driving forces or emotional content function in the same way.

Some of the problems are due to vested interests in the Middle East.

I may be wrong, but I think there were vested interests in NI. There I think it was mainly criminal on both side ie. IRA, if you consider it as one entity, and similar for the UVF.

This led to fragmentation of the IRA, but at the end they had sufficient core support to be able to negotiate a settlement. I am not suggesting that many members of the IRA didnt commit callous, calculating and criminal actions. But this was also for the UVF.

In the Middle East, I think some of the leadership Hamas and Fatah are criminal and corrupt and have abused their followers. But many of the stated objectives of the other leaders have been and are justifiable and their resistance unfortunately necessary.

But for lasting peace to occur after any future settlement, it will be necessary to have the accepted Palestinian representatives of Hamas and Fatah present at any settlement negotiation.

Also, I think, Israel, has and had some corrupt leaders or politicians, who have bent to corporate forces and religious pressures, from inside and outside Israel.

Jeremy Bowen
BBC Middle East Editor
BBC Television Centre
London W12

14 January, 2009

Dear Mr Bowen,

For as many years as I remember, I have been reading and listening to your reports from the Middle East.

And I'll put my cards on the table straight away; you and your BBC colleagues' perspective on Israel and its conflicts with its neighbours is (and always has been in my view) equivalent to the propaganda that comes from the Hamas information office or from the desk of President Ahmadinejad. You (by which I mean the BBC) are no more objective than say Fox News on US domestic matters, although unlike self-proclaimed partisan agencies, the BBC masquerades as an impartial voice.

Jews in this country are not fooled, neither do we especially care. I am of your generation (two years younger than you), a British Jew born to Hungarian parents, a generation which by and large survived the Holocaust but whose parents' generation did not. You are not a Jew and have no emotional concept of anti-Semitism. And I don't mean the Neo-Nazi variety of skinheads and Hitler moustaches, but the more subtle, middle class prejudices which blighted my university days in the early 80s and which sits on a continuum of centuries of persecution, banishment and exodus wherever and whenever Jews have tried to live in peace with other people.

Nor do you have the emotional capacity to understand why and where Israel came from (I don't mean the historical background which is self-evident). While I was at university on anti-apartheid marches in the early 80s, most of the campus population was on pro-Palestinian rallies wearing the trendy Arafat kafiyeh and subscribing to that peculiarly British notion that the underdog must somehow be the righteous party in any conflict.

(By the way, I recall that Arafat was an Egyptian not a Palestinian and that he chose the name Yasser as he felt himself to be an Arab victim of the British mandate in Palestine, lest we get overly hypocritical about Britain's history).

If you could understand the WHY of Israel, you would know that Israel does not care what the rest of the world thinks about it, i.e. whether you merely hate Israel a little in the fashionable way of the middle classes, hate it very much as most of the world does, or hate it with the full venom of President Ahmadinejad; these are all merely shades of hate. In essence, Israel being the embodiment of Jewishness is ubiquitously despised, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in my book being largely synonymous. As you know, Israel has only one true ally in the world, being the US , a largely Jewish-led nation. Israel does not care or need to care about the rest of world opinion. Not should it; the rest of world opinion is and always has been hostile. If Ahmadinejad dream of removing Israel from the map of the world came to fruition, very few people (including at the BBC) would mourn.

I think that the analogy you make in your latest diary on the current crisis between Britain and the IRA during the Troubles is weak; I would have thought that the Falklands War was a better exemplum of British attitudes to "defence" of the nation. And you'll be aware that this country has been fighting its own wars in the Middle East for some years now, although we have no obvious connection with either Iraq or Afghanistan . I recall also that Russia has had some not inconsiderable involvement in Chechnya and two Georgian breakaway regions, that China has had a hint of recent interference in Tibet, and that France's conduct in Rwanda has not been entirely meritorious etc. You get the picture.

In other words, the recent pronouncements of the UN Security Council members to the latest Israel conflict is, shall we say, just a tad hypocritical. No change there: was it a couple of decades ago that the UN passed a resolution that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination? And now Israel is supposed to heed the words of an organisation which bemoans its very right to exist? I don't think so?

Of course it's not fashionable to be objective about Israel (sorry, I don't recall the BBC's report on the death of a friend of mine's twin girls aged 11 a few years ago in a bomb explosion on a bus in Israel ; perhaps there were no BBC reporters around at the time). Mr Bowen, Palestinians do not have the monopoly on suffering.

In summary, Israel does not care whether the BBC reports the facts or not. For the reasons mentioned above, Israel is not trying to court the favour of world opinion; this was a cause lost several centuries back. To put it bluntly, the fact that Israel exists as a highly successful nation state is two fingers up at you, at the BBC and at the rest of the world. Israel will be around whatever you write or say, diligently keeping its population ( Israel also has women and children, by the way), safe from Hamas bombardment.

Or to put it in the context of the defining historical event of the 20th century, Israel means: "Never again."

So you can write what you want.