Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

H/S what are the answers to the questions?

fred - thoroughly agree with you for once ....... absolutely the vote re bombing in syria should be a free vote for all MPs

i haven't heard or read the arguments for either, but i am pretty sure that i'ld be in the "pro" camp despite doubts over its long-term effectiveness

nevertheless, doing nothing looks an even worse course, and would be akin to what happened when hitler was allowed to take over saarland and czech without anyone saying boo

despite the ultimate decision to stand up to hitler, even with the inevitable and foreseeable huge human cost,there remained a significant element within britain who would have remained on the sidelines or even supported a nazi regime

I would like Call Me to explain what the objectives are.

It wasn't long ago that he wanted to bomb Assad, and it took his own party to tell him to feck off.


What is the end game on this?

Former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone blames Tony Blair for 7/7 bombings

i dare say that had you listened to the speech(es) or read the reports on it, your questions might have been answered - not that you then be obliged to agree with the conclusions of either side

the guardian takes no side - one pro; one anti; one neutral

on the other hand, corbyn looks (yet again) to have totally mismanaged the labour party and even his colleagues in the shadow cabinet
that he doesn't dare (pathetic excuses) show his face in oldham surely says quite a lot about the sort of reception he might have received

Go on then c, summarise the exact position.

Manuel,

Look at the precursor to WW2 and what allowed Hitler to gain "power".

As I have posted before I think it was a justifiable war against Hitler.

And though I would have preferred different "going to war" was a justifiable action by the "Allies", although the action could have started earlier. (But I wonder how much delay was due to the process of rearming.

-====--

I think Assad and ISIS and other "Barbaric" elements should be "removed", but would like to see a sensible association of different countries with a sensible plan of action and a feasible plan for after management rather than Bomb and Destroy indiscriminately.

-=-=-=-=-=

But what gets up my nose, is media concentration on Corbyn's position and reasoning without recognising there are multiple differences within the "tory" party.

I would like to see a "grown up" or adult form of government rather than "game playing" and "Yabooing" which "government" has become by a bunch of PR defectives.

-=-==-=

Also, the above applies to some members of the labour party, who have had their toys taken off them and behaving like emotionally retarded children.

My guess is, if Corbyn is "deposed" by the "at odds "right" wing fraction " then the labour party will split.

Corbyn, has ground level support for many of his ideas, and labour needs to rethink what their goals are and the pathway to those goals is. That needs time and they have 3years to do it.

When, the real effect of Osborne's "reforms" bite, his following may be even greater.

-==-=-=

Don't know, but it is interesting.

I think Assad and ISIS and other "Barbaric" elements should be "removed", but would like to see a sensible association of different countries with a sensible plan of action and a feasible plan for after management rather than Bomb and Destroy indiscriminately.

===============

can't disagree with that, but i don't think the world can afford to dither for months while various bits and pieces are discussed, batted about - and even then no unanimous or even broad agreement reached

on balance, i think, but without absolute conviction, that we should join the fray ...... meanwhile, i am certain that all sorts of high level discussion is indeed taking place between the leaders of the various countries

it's difficult to be in favour of allying with the russians, for a variety of reasons, but then there were considerable reasons for distrust before we joined forces in WW2 ..... sometimes it is a case of needs must when the devil drives

Here is a summation c, seeing as you don't have one.




Why Cameron's case for Syria airstrikes is highly contentious


There is no clear strategy, objective or endgame, with one US commander describing the campaign in Syria and Iraq as a stalemate



story here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/26/syria-airstrikes-cameron-case-highly-contentious

max - now try reading the whole and posting a balanced excerpt instead of "doing a fred"

>There is no clear strategy, objective or endgame, with one US commander describing the campaign in Syria and Iraq as a stalemate



Which will produce "resentment", "detachment", "alienation" of more of the "surviving" adolescents "justifying" and resorting to "terrorist" type actions in the M.E. and abroad against those who have replace their present oppressors with a new variety of oppressors.

Also, will see the controlling forces as the responsible for the chaos which will arise.

Up and at "em", kill the heathens, they are nor like us. Or are they?
=-=-=-=

I did read it c, it reads really well for boots on the ground approach.


In one indication of the strength of the forces Cameron has made so much of, the US spent $600m (about £400m) training rebels to go back over the border into Syria. In the end, only 58 went back. Asked in September at a Congressional committee how many of them were still fighting, General Lloyd Austin said: “We are talking four or five.”

my own views are set out clearly in 65413 and 65419

no doubt the usual suspects will keep batting this round and round and round for at least the next week

Is Cameron going to have a chat with Saudi, or is it birds of a feather:

Saudi Arabia 'to execute more than 50 convicted of terrorism'
26 November 2015
From the section Middle East


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34931205



Perhaps, he wants to sell them a few more pieces of armoury.

No principles, but good business!

a partial version of the actuality of course
nevertheless, horrendous brutality, almost certainly to send out a warning to the (fundamentalist?) opponents of the current regime

much more interesting of course, or at least in my opinion, is that every one of the gulf states is keeping its head well below the parapet in this IS conflict
that doesn't mean that covert aid to "the west" is not being given, and perhaps quite substantially, but of course every one of these gulf states is intrinsically unstable, each one having strong fundamentalist elements in the upper ranks

As empty as JB.

But more to the liking of some:

Is Fred still bleating on ??

comme d'habitude ...... except he doesn't want to align himself with the french unless corbyn, abbott and mccluskey unexpectedly change their minds

Right. I'm sure the French are fretting on Fred supporting them.