Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Manuel,

I suggest you reread my post and get somebody help you comprehend their contents.

I know it is difficult for you, but thank god I am not your mentor.

But, I would prefer the UK to sit on the side and negotiate and form a decent policy which would include ALL PARTIES, not just that which is advantageous to the UK and Cameron's political history.

Compared with negotiating for the peace after WW2 it should be easier.

Stopping of the Korean, Vietnam wars etc. were said to be impossible.

The "killing" was stopped and the world goes on!


0-0-0-

I am not against using force to stop the M.E problem, but it has to be joint force with foot soldiers from all participants under a joint control from its initiation.

Later, the control can pass to the government which is formed in the aftermath.

But the cost of doing so is going to be high.

and my question is and remains
FOR HOW LONG WOULD YOU BE PREPARED TO SIT ON YOUR HANDS

in any case and like it or not, this will not be an "open" free vote even among MPs, so with the published agenda of the corbynistas and snp, you will (of course) never ever get agreement from all parties ......

it follows that the best that can be hoped for is a rejection of cameron's policy (on balance i think he's as right as circumstances allow), or a reasonable majority in favour

Look at my add on to post 65485.

It should be a free vote of all members of HP and probably will be for the labour party if Corbyn has sense.

But I am prepared for the present tory party to have the entire responsibility the proposed actions.

Of course, Cameron may duck and duck the responsibility of his own policy once again.

The longer he leaves the vote the more the public will reject his policy. This seems to be happening at the moment, as the limits and problems the present actions are revealed.

Interesting to see polls next week.

Grant Shapps quits amid Tory bullying claims!


Grant Shapps has quit as international development minister amid allegations of "bullying" in the Conservative Party, the BBC understands.

The only surprise is that Shapps didn't go years ago.. care to comment now H/S on the Tory Bullying?.. apart from the usual no one cares nonsense.

It should be a free vote of all members of HP and probably will be for the labour party if Corbyn has sense.
thoroughly agree with the sentiment of that, though the reality will assuredly be that MPs from both sides will be leant on heavily by the grandees and whips - no idea about snp

==============

I am not against using force to stop the M.E problem, but it has to be joint force with foot soldiers from all participants under a joint control from its initiation.
nice idea though it won't happen .... my guess is that the russkies will be persuaded to supply the grunt pretty much on their own - but there'll be a hefty price of course

==============

and a straight question to finish with ....

do you think MPs should vote per their individual conscience or should they vote according to the (questionable) wishes of their constituents or constituency parties?

imo, though assuredly MPs will not be in command of even half the facts allowed to the cabinet, shadow cabinet and their respected (hohoho!) leaders, they are still more intelligent than the average joe and should vote per their individual conscience

I think it will end up being a free vote for Labour. Corbyn looks unlikely to risk being defied by up to 100 MPs together with resignations from his Cabinet.

from the tory side, i hear the potential rebels have been "persuaded" to stand in line
i find it impossible to believe that the labour dissidents will not also be leant on, though with what effect remains to be seen

what's the score with snp?
i find it hard to believe that all 41 of its MPs are unanimous in their opinions

Corbyn has emailed all the party faithful that voted him in. They are then supposed to lean on their MP with the agenda of reselection. MPs will have returned to their constituencies this weekend giving an opportunity for the Corbynistas to bully their MPs.

Diane Abbott once claimed that murderous Chinese dictator Chairman Mao did ‘more good than wrong’, it emerged yesterday.

Communist leader Mao killed tens of millions of his citizens during his rule from 1949 to 1976.

But he won praise from Labour’s international development spokesman for leaving his country on the ‘verge of great economic success’.

Miss Abbott’s comments emerged after Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell’s ill-judged stunt during Wednesday’s Autumn Statement, when he quoted from the Little Red Book of Mao’s sayings. It was condemned by Diane Wei Liang, who spent three years in a labour camp under Mao as a child.

Labour embarrassment over the stunt was compounded yesterday after footage emerged of Miss Abbott during an appearance on the BBC’s This Week show in 2008 when she revealed she had been debating Mao’s legacy with her son.

Former Tory minister Michael Portillo had queried why ‘people still wear Mao T-shirts, people still carry Mao Little Red Books’. Hackney MP Miss Abbott replied: ‘I suppose that some people would judge that on balance Mao did more good than wrong. We can’t say that about the Nazis.’

She added: ‘He led his country from feudalism, he helped to defeat the Japanese, and he left his country on the verge of the great economic success they are having now.’

Yesterday Lib Dem leader Tim Farron said Miss Abbott’s remarks were ‘ludicrous’.

Grant Shapps quits amid Tory bullying claims!


Grant Shapps has quit as international development minister amid allegations of "bullying" in the Conservative Party, the BBC understands.

The only surprise is that Shapps didn't go years ago.. care to comment now H/S on the Tory Bullying?.. apart from the usual no one cares nonsense.

Not my problem.

You can do better then that.

Manuel,

I think they an MP should vote according to conscience.

However, there can be a question of whether an MP represents the views of those who vote for him/her, or is representative for his/her constituents.

I think he/she should advise his/her constituents, at the time of the election, that he/she will vote according to his/her conscience. If all did so, his vote, in general, may in general, be representative of the public in general.


-=-=-=-=-=

Haze,

You may find that many of the "utterances" suppose to be made by Corbyn were made in 70s and 80s and you are broadcasting them without relevant context.

Probably, many of the remarks made were before or during the period Cameron and Osborne were thought, by some, to have been to be sniffing various ingredients and exposing themselves to heroin, cocaine, as has been reported in various newspapers.

It may account for the befuddled brains at times.

Also, I suggest you look at some of the policies that Cameron advocated on drug centres, before he was elected and during his period of being greener than he now is.

=-=-=-=-=

Mind, seems Shapps has been dumped by Wavy Dave.

He was forgetful about expense claims.

He should have been reported to IDS.

It takes a real chimp to vote for the present con party.

Something else.

What is getting up my nose at the moment is the false reason that "We should support the actions of "friends" ie. referring to France etc.

I like France and Hollande and other European and non-European countries in general, but if I saw friend attempting unjustified murder I would think it more appropriate to try to stop him, not help him in his action.

I think much of Cameron's recent speech was false emotional claptrap aimed at the "up and at em" brigade to gain support for a misjudged policy.

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacificsts for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."


-- Hermann Goring

MEANWHILE BACK IN THE REAL WORLD :-


Nigel Farage urges Tory voters to 'lend' him their vote to defeat Labour at Oldham by-election
The Ukip leader says the contest is now so close that he would be throwing all the party’s available campaign resources at winning.

Telegraph

Nigel Farage: 'Old Labour' voters 'appalled' by Jeremy Corbyn's unpatriotic views
The Ukip Leader has said his Party will 'bite very, very hard' on the 'old Labour' voters who would be 'appalled' by Jeremy Corbyn's unpatriotic views

Ukip will "bite very, very hard" on the "old Labour" voters who would be "appalled" by Jeremy Corbyn's unpatriotic views, Nigel Farage has said.
The Ukip leader said many Labour voters would be uncomfortable about Mr Corbyn allegedly "cosying up to the IRA", believing the UK should give up the nuclear deterrent and wanting to give Falklands back to Argentina.
Speaking at the official announcement of the Party's candidate in the Oldham by-election, Mr Farage described the Labour leader as a "trendy hard-left Labour man" and said this by-election would be a test of whether Mr Corbyn can connect with voters outside north London.

Mr Farage said: "Is Jeremy Corbyn patriotic? Does he believe in this country? Does he believe in the people of this country?
"So I feel that we really, really can bite very, very hard into that old Labour vote who frankly bear little in common with the north London, trendy hard-left Labour man.
"This very much amongst Labour voters is going to be a test of, does Corbyn connect outside of north London and a very narrow, pretty extreme left-wing group of people.
"And all the indications that we've got is that very large numbers of Labour people are frankly pretty appalled by many of the stances that Mr Corbyn takes."


Labour MPs have only one option – a mutiny
Jeremy Corbyn has lost all credibility as Labour leader. The Parliamentary party should stage a coup by choosing its own own.

By John McTernan7:00AM GMT 28 Nov 2015
What do you call a man who promises to do one thing and then does the opposite? A liar? A hypocrite? Or just plain Jeremy Corbyn?


On Thursday night Corbyn wrote to all Labour MPs explaining that he could not support David Cameron’s proposal for air strikes in Syria. This surprised the shadow cabinet, who had just had a meeting with the leader in which he had – they thought – signed up to collective decision-making on the Syria vote. Myself, I wouldn’t have believed a word he said – but then I would never have served in the current shadow cabinet at all.
Still, those lies, the letter to the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP), and the intention of Corbyn to attend this weekend’s Stop The War demonstration show that the “we’ve got to talk about Jeremy” phase is well and truly over.
It is now time for the PLP to act. Mutiny will take some organisation, but it no longer requires bravery – just self-respect.


It is worth recalling the charge sheet. Disrespectful behaviour at the Cenotaph. Attacking the head of the Armed Forces. Slapping down the shadow defence secretary Maria Eagle by appointing Ken Livingstone over her head. Livingstone himself making slurs about the mental health of an MP and then refusing to apologise.


On top of that has come the accelerating madness of this week: John McDonnell citing the mass murderer Mao as a “joke”; Livingstone claiming that the 7/7 bombers “gave up their lives” rather than being terrorist murderers; and then, finally, Corbyn doing the dirty on his own shadow cabinet.


All of this underpinned by performances at the dispatch box by Corbyn of which the best you can say is that, in the words of George Galloway, “at least his trousers haven’t fallen down”.
The question until recently has been who should the party rally round. For all the undoubted talents of Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper, they are still licking their wounds from the leadership election. Of the grandees, Harriet Harman has just stepped down from the leadership and Alan Johnson has said so many times that he doesn’t want the job that he is probably telling the truth.
Who then? Cometh the hour, cometh the man. The frontbencher who has shown the most dignity, the most grace under pressure since the election of Jeremy Corbyn is Hilary Benn. His honest attempts to maintain unity, his eloquent attempts to explain what Corbyn means and his transparent decency make him the obvious choice.
Will the PLP act? Well, they have to. If Syria is not the trigger, then the disastrous result predicted in Oldham West should be. Something has to give and it has to be Corbyn.

The trouble is that if Labour wins Oldham it will put pressure on Corbyn to leave. I want Corbyn to stay until the election. It is no coincidence that the Conservatives are giving Corbyn an easy ride. They desperately want him to remain as leader.