Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

fred continually berates and belittles as "little englanders" any who want "out", but runs true to form when equally decrying the very strenuous efforts that have been made to alter the status quo

almost a racing certainty that he won't actually cast a vote anyway

====================

for myself, as below

REFERENDUM
it remains a very difficult call
there are even greater unknowns by voting "out"

on the other hand, though i think DC played as good as hand as he possibly good given what was actually achievable, i am far from convinced that restricting benefits for eu migrants will do much to restrict the inflow ...... blocking them entirely was always a complete non-starter for obvious reasons

i certainly don't like that we have not regained any control over what eu laws we adopt or reject ..... and it is irrelevant who gave away that cornerstone in the first place

leaving the eu will certainly not be waving an economic magic wand, especially when it comes to trading with eu, as norway has discovered

all very finely balanced in my mind, and as you can see, i waver in either direction in just the slightest breeze

Dave's blown it....



EU deal: Who is left to hail David Cameron’s puny gains as a Roman triumph?

The negotiations could never be serious – and no one on either side will feel pleased by the result



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12165843/Who-is-left-to-hail-David-Camerons-puny-gains-as-a-Roman-triumph.html

Instead of newspaper rhetoric, I would like to see televised debates on the subject with sensible analyses of the pros and cons of staying in. Like most I suspect, I am offended by the EU riding roughshod over UK sovereighty, particularly a EU parliament that is clearly left wing in the majority, and as is the practice of such, very good at spending other peoples money. The various courts in Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg are examples of utter waste. I am also irritated by the inability of the UK to deport foreign criminals.
I am less worried about EU job seekers that sustain our hospitals, care homes and other services, generally on poor wages and with exorbitant rents to pay. In the main they are honest, hard working folk that are doing what Maggie used to exhort. Get on your bike and find work.
I like the idea of a debate with Jacob Rees Mogg defending the out position, against David Cameron or George Osborne.

Newspapers influence peoples opinions, and as such have to be taken seriously.

Todays headlines are almost all bad for Dave, pathetic performance etc etc.

Looks like half the cabinet are coming out against his deal, and hence he is dead in the water.


Where is Boris?

JRM is a great guy and exceedingly droll, but far too intelligent and assuredly would not come across well on tv to the average joe ..... and of course he's been to eton as well, so a big black mark to the socialist class-propogators!

it'll be interesting to see on which side of the fence young boris will align himself
whatever his faults (and virtues), he has tremendous charisma and following throughout the country ...... dick-head-fred is sure to jump on his soapbox about that!

i thoroughly agree with you about european courts and their rulings and also, if it is indeed they, the blocking of uk's ability to deport when warranted

the human rights act is now insane with its enormous bias towards the criminal (he has a cat in brixton to support!) and almost none for the victims

================

the following small c+p sums up plenty on the biz side .....

Former Labour cabinet minster Yvette Cooper tweeted; "Visited company & workforce in Whitwood today who said 80% of business there depends on Europe. More reason why Yorkshire is #StrongerIn."

if we leave, there is assuredly the great unknown as to the effects
it won't just be the more obvious, but the knock-on that is potentially seismic across the world, including how any "disruption" will (could) be seized upon and manipulated by assorted anti-west/democratic factions

You could be right about Rees Mogg, but I believe he comes across as a thoroughly decent man who is quick witted, calm and incisive. He will cut through the flannel and alarmism that tends to cloud any debate. Boris may be popular, but I would prefer Jacob as the more clear thinker and as a future PM.
Clearly there should be a series of debates, for example Nigel has earned his right as the instigator of the process that led the Tories to include the referendum in its manifesto.
I am still inclined to vote out. I don't believe those hard working EU nationals already here will be unduly affected while it would be nice to poke the eyes of the elite in Brussels, that have more to fear than we have. For a start they will have a lot less of other peoples money to throw away.

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/brexit-in-urging-us-to-stay-david-cameron-spells-out-why-we-should-leave/

I agree re Jacob Rees-Mogg as I mentioned in post 67544.

There is no doubt that leaving will bring it's problems, more so than staying in, especially in the early months, but longer term I believe it will be more beneficial to be out.
In the scheme of things DC was not asking for much and look how our EU partners kicked against that. They may try to be obstructive if we leave but they won't want to give up the trade imbalance.

As for Fred & Stan and their little Englander quips, I would say globalisation is the name of the game, there is a whole wide world out there to trade, you little Europeans.
2517

max - one of the more stupid c+p's i'm afraid

================

iturama - a bit cut off your nose to spite your face i'm afraid

if uk left eu, would eu collapse?
i don't know, but it would certainly heighten the possibility, and that would have to be bad for world stability and more


if uk stays in what chance of changing some of the eu's more blatant measures of interference and monetary abuse?
not great, but assuredly nothing can be influenced by uk if we opt out


in today's world of the media, it's a shame that JRM would not (be able to) make a great PM whatever his manifold strengths and virtues
as for BJ as PM, i agree it would be pretty scary, for though he is a seriously intelligent chap he chooses to adopt a somewhat buffoonish persona which would make it difficult for him to be taken seriously on the world stage

Do you ever get off the fence c?

Why does Manuel the dishwasher remind me of these lines:

Yes, and how many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, and how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

-===-=-=


A man blind to the needs of others, but prepared to satisfy his own greed at their expense!

Cynic, the EU cannot go on as it is, with or without the UK. You cannot rule by committee or by bullying as is the case today. That has happened with Greece and Italy. You may say with some good reason, but who decides when bullying is good or bad?
The only logical answer to the chaos today is to revert to a common market or to an even closer political union along the lines of the USA, with an EU executive president, a federal goverment legislative branch and State legislatives. In the latter scenario, how will the UK fare, despite being in the EU? Like Mexico or Canada?
Cameron keeps banging on about a reformed EU but I dont see any reform. Just fear monging about the Russians, crime etc. We are in Nato and interpol and being outside the EU doesnt stop other agreements being made which are mutually beneficial. As it happens, when it comes to the military, we already work more closely with the US, Canada, NZ and Australia than with the EU countries.

Boris is in a tricky situation. He clearly wants to be on the winning side as it will affect his chances of being PM. If he is an outer an the Ins win then he hands it all to Osborne. If he is an in and in wins then the Eurosceptics in the party will disown him, but that might happen if he votes in anyway. He has to gamble on out winning and vote out to keep the support of the party. The Conservative MPs choose just two to be voted on for leader by the party faithful. That is why Ken Clarke didn't get selected. He was too pro Europe.

Posted up by mro across the road, good read.


http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/02/in-puffing-this-hollow-deal-cameron-is-treating-voters-like-fools.html

max - it's rare that i sit on the fence, but at the moment, i truly haven't decided which way to vote, though vote i most assuredly shall

fred is currently being even more arseholish than usual, and i may take the rarest of steps by filtering him, even if only temporarily ..... some p+q is quite enticing


iturama - there are many unknown things to fear in leaving, but it certainly concerns me greatly

on the other hand, i agree that the eu legislature is little more than a huge and super-bloated gravy train, spending money like zimbabwe $, and introducing all sorts of legislation, much seemingly without benefit to anyone much - eg which apples can or cannot be grown

i am also deeply disturbed that every single penurious rag, tag and bobtail country is welcomed into the fold like long-lost sons, with all the problems that they bring with them

much to consider carefully before the day

Osborne talks about a leap into the dark if we leave the EU. That is a dishonest argument. Agreed that there are more uncertainties about leaving than staying. But the certainties of staying are not very appealing.
Besides, the referendum has been on the agenda for years and it is the duty of the government to plan for all eventualities, so that there is no "leap into the dark".
The Open Europe report of 2015 that claims to be the most comprehensive regarding the economic affect of a Brexit summarised:
"This report concludes that the economic impact of Brexit is not as clear cut in either direction as most previous analyses have suggested. Instead it will depend on a number of tough decisions in the UK and Europe. This includes whether the EU itself will embrace reform and whether UK politicians and voters are willing to take Britain into the deregulated, free trading economy it would need to become outside the EU".
I believe it is far easier for the UK to deregulate further than the EU to embrace meaningful reform.

i was not talking solely about economic policy, but about more far-reaching political implications

Referendum date officially June 23

It is interesting to look back at the comments on this thread over the last couple of years. A very common statement from several posters here was that Cameron was lying and he would never hold a referendum. It was especially said by UKIP supporters.

Several of us including Hilary said that the only way to get a referendum was to vote Conservative.

I must admit I didn't think he would chance it.

But perhaps the fix is in already?


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/645531/david-cameron-european-union-eu-renegotiation-martin-schulz-angela-merkel-parliament