I post this with the kind Permission of Dead Cat Bounce. Who started the Thread Initially.
I wish it had been around to read when I started. There are some brilliant observations on the Pitfalls of Day Trading and some positive ones ;)
Anyway read it/print it off/Memorise it.
Iain
Thanks again DCB.





Dead Cat Bounce - 19 Sep'02 - 23:18 View 'Dead Cat Bounce' profile

Why I'm giving up daytrading
Well, obviously the simple answer is "Because I'm no good at it". But that begs the question "Why aren't I any good at it"? Well I have thought very long and hard about this, so lets go back to the beginning.
The very first course I ever did was an options course in the LIFFE building when it was still in full use. I was bowled over by the buzz of the building, the traders in their jackets, the atmosphere, the vibrancy and energy. I knew that had I discovered this place at the beginning of my business lfe, then this was where I would have been at home. I just loved it. This sowed the seed of a future in futures.
I discovered Etrade (then ESI) and a year or so later I did a series of ADVFN technical analysis and trading courses with the excellent Limspfield Chartist and Bullshare (courses founded and organised by the inestimable Anthonyjb). I found that technical analysis was a language that spoke clearly to me. Charts came alive and the dry stuff of share dealing was transformed. I discovered a whole new world of interesting people and a possible lifestyle that beckoned seductively.
I first actually traded Index futures daytradiing at an ADVFN realtime training day. In that unreal environment I did very well and thought "This is the life for me". Visions of the Ferrari and the 45ft ketch loomed large. I opened my CMC cfd account and started daytrading from work. (I run my own business) And then the worst possible thing imaginable happened.....my first week was really successful. Like the coke addict, my first hit was sweet as could be. It was obvious to me that daytrading was really simple and re-inforced what I had felt when I was in the LIFFE building - why hadn't I discovered it 20 years earlier.
I discovered a private chatroom of futures and options traders and was allowed to join it - (thanks guys, you know who you are). I was made welcome and, very much the new dumb kid, I asked endless, endless questions (all of which I have seen repeated here and on etrade 1000 times) and all were answered patiently, kindly and with great humour. Wow, not only had I discovered something I really wanted to do more than anything else in the world, but I had found this fantastic private club, filled with these great guys (and sometimes a girl) in which to spend my time while doing it. And not only that, these guys were helping me too! What more could I possibly want.....
Well, needless to say it all went pearshaped. My 3 hour course in technical analysis did not make me an expert and strangely, there was a bit more to daytrading than I thought. The secret of success, apparently so easy to come by for others, was proving a tad elusive for me. Revert to plan B.
Closed CMC account. Pulled up the drawbridge and retreated for the time being. Surely the solution was to become more technically proficient. So I read a lot more books, a LOT more books. Murphy, Edwards and Magee, Achelis, DiNapoli, Nison and Linton on Technical Analysis. Pring, Lefevre, Elder, Sperandeo, Bernstein, Dalton, Farley, Piper, Schwager, Tharp, Slater, Gough, Goldstein-Jackson, Douglas (the best). I went on more courses, weeks of them (Robert Newgrosh, ADVFN, RVTaylor, RobinT etc etc). I got better, faster, realtime charting software, opened a spreadbet account and paper traded for weeks. Results were superb. OK this was it. My technical analysis skills were as good as any city analyst now. My technique was tested and honed in the red hot furnace of paper trading with a spread better. I was ready. I opened an account with a US broker to trade real index contracts, none of this smalltime cfd or spreadbet stuff for me. I was big time!!! Guess what? I lost again. And what was more, my business suffered badly during the 9 months all this took - a double whammy.
Revert to plan C. Talk to successful traders and see what I can learn. A seed of doubt was now sown. A very successful trader who I respect immensely told me I would never be a daytrader because I lacked the discipline required. This stung. Whether she said that to encourage me to try to attain discipline, or whether she really meant it I do not know. I have never been defeated by anything, surely trading was just another skill that can be learned. I was spurred to become more "disciplined", whatever that means.
Back to paper trading with a more disciplined approach. And only trade the US market in the evenings, so the business won't suffer - what a good idea. 6 weeks without a losing day! This was it. I had cracked it.The disciplined approach sure did work. It was obvious that index trading short term with the spreadbetters was impossible, so I opened a real account with a US broker again and started trading the S&P emini online. Guess what? I lost. I could hold intelligent conversations with the very best traders. I knew what I was talking about. I knew all the angles and wrinkles. I knew about risk and reward. I knew about how certain patterns do and don't work on the S&P. I knew about fib ratios. I knew the right and wrong times of day to trade. I knew technical analysis backwards. I talked the talk and walked the walk. But I couldn't trade.
Now the above spanned about 3 years, during which time I constantly watched stock charts for fun, and often wrote technical analysis pieces on this BB, but did not trade shares at all. My analysis was good, but the prospect of actually trading shares over periods of days and weeks seemed so low key and boring after the adrenaline rush of daytrading futures, so I never even considered it. I would persevere with daytrading. I KNEW if I thought hard enough, learned enough, worked hard enough at it, then it MUST come right.
Revert to plan D. Private coaching. An excellent man and very successful trader (you know who you are, and thank you) tried to help me. Without the trading screen in front of me, I learned all the right responses and gave all the right answers. "You CAN do it. I know you can" he said. I tried again and lost. Great respect to you, coach, but you was wrong. I can't do it.
But why can't I? The answer? My psychology is wrong. I am who I am and my particular psychology just isn't suited to the short time frame I was trying to trade in. I work all day and get home tired. I sit in front of the screen with sweating palms and my heart in my mouth whenever I'm in a trade. My critical faculties get shot to hell and I find I'm making trades that, when analysed in the cold light of the following day, had absolutely nothing to recommend them, yet at the time, they looked sure fire winners. Or alternatively, I wait and wait for the pattern to prove itself and enter the trade so late that the move is over and starting to reverse by the time I get in. Half formed patterns look like they must certainly complete just the way I want them to, and they then surprise me when they don't, after I have taken the trade. Why do I do these things when I am so good at analysis and can read charts so well? Fear and greed. We all suffer from these, but we all overcome them in different time frames. I have often noticed that if I'm in an argument on the phone at work, I often fly off the handle and don't get the best result that I could have got because my emotions have got the better of my critical and analytical abilities. However, if I'm in a dispute that is taking place by letter, I nearly always win because the time frame allows me to think deeply, consider all angles and come up with a winning strategy. Why have I not realised this before and considered it in conjunction with my trading? Dunno. But it sure makes sense now.
A well known inhabitant of this BB suggested that trading in a longer time frame might suit me better. I resisted because I loved daytrading and wanted to succeed at it. But for the last few weeks, I have been watching shares in a daily or even weekly timeframe. I chat with a friend on a Sunday morning about the charts. It is relaxed and fun. Prices are checked at the end of each day and adjustments made to stops and guess what? It works. The psychology of it is the same as when I'm paper trading - no stress. More likelihood of good judgements being made.
Last night, I got home and fired up the daytrading software. Sat in front of the screen with sweating palms and thumping heart. Watched the S&P and realised, with a sudden feeling of release, that I had no idea where the price was going so any trade would be a gamble. The bubble had burst. I no longer felt the need to be a daytrader.
The successsful daytraders that I know have certain learned abilities, and also certain psychological traits that enable them to make correct decisions while under extreme pressure. I have realised, after a long time, that no matter how hard I try, I do not have that ability. And that my skill lies in considering charts and weighing probabilities in a calm atmosphere. I am going to stop trying to wrench my mind into a place it will not willingly go, and play to the strengths that I have. This will be less stressful and more fun. So here's to Plan E....
dcb
PS. Just read through the above. Gosh its long! I hope some people find something useful in it.

MANNERS1 - 19 Sep'02 - 23:34 - 1 of 329

Just read 'Trading in the Zone' by Mark Douglas and it made a lot of sense to me...
Posted the fundemental rules on my wall and follow them religously!
Best book on trading I have ever read - it alters your psychological outlook and the rest follows from there.

kajman - 19 Sep'02 - 23:42 - 2 of 329

Thanks for that dcb. Plenty for others to think about in that account.
Best of luck for your future trading.

Seymour Clearly - 19 Sep'02 - 23:44 - 3 of 329 edit

That's a superb piece dcb. I can identify with the "evening trading of the dow /s&p which I've just tried and failed miserably at - because I'm too short term and had I left virtually every losing position open I'd have made money. So I too am back to longer term positions. Haven't tried daytrading though - too busy at work making money to feed my / this habit.
I still remember very early in the days of advfn after I had just joined the pbb I commented on how I thought a share had fallen too much and was showing signs of recovery, and you warned me off it saying it was a dcb - which it was and I still remember thinking what a great board this was that people would take the trouble to help another soul out who they didn't know. With very few exceptions that's still the case today.
I'm with you on plan E - and if you see me about to do something stupid, tell me again! Thanks dcb,
Seymour.

M.T.Glass - 19 Sep'02 - 23:45 - 4 of 329

Excellent post dcb. Deserves press/magazine publication too. Sincerely hope you find Plan E is the one. As someone else quoted "You gotta find your rhythm."

teaboat - 19 Sep'02 - 23:48 - 5 of 329

DCB, great post, and what strikes me is the great dedication you had had in your pursuit of your ambition.
Good luck with Plan E. I am sure it will be successful.

Martini - 19 Sep'02 - 23:49 - 6 of 329

Nice one J not often one sees a truly honest post on the BBs
Having bummed around the BBs for a few years and met many traders I came to the same conclusion that you have which is that good day traders are born and not made.
And what I mean by good day traders are those who consistently turn in profits not matter which way the markets are going at any point in time.
I know one can be competent and make a killing when the Market goes the way everyone expects but doing it week in week out are now theres the rub.
Look at the names that appear on these BBs in a blaze of glory and then somehow fade away.
O and by the way I am a crap day trader as well but at least I know it and I am still around and in the game in my own way.
Good luck with plan E I hope you have no need to go further in the alphabet.

Best Regards
M
PS
Alan got to be a contender this week eh?
NJP - 19 Sep'02 - 23:52 - 7 of 329

Great post, DCB. I've served nowhere near the apprenticeship you have but I've come to a similar conclusion - the longer term approach is definitely the one for me. Smaller punts, wider stops and ride a longer trend; all add up to a much less stress. And, if you're winning, trail your stops and take some time out from the screen. Hope plan E works for you.

fredbear - 20 Sep'02 - 00:00 - 8 of 329

DCB
well done sir! i feel like standing up and clapping for that post.. :-)
why do we make it so hard to look ourselves and consider our failings!?
not seeing the wood for the trees and the strange need to do battle with my strengths was also my problem.
still not found an instrument thats suits me yet! agree that SB/CFDS are a waste of time (for me anyhow!) options seem the most suitable.
time will tell i guess!

regards / GL with plan E
Fred
SerratedEdge - 20 Sep'02 - 00:01 - 9 of 329

DCB - respect for your frank and forthright exposition
I am still at a loss from when I started daytrading about a year ago and I, too, have made money on "swing trades" lasting days to weeks. I have recently recovered some losses but tonight just lost over 200 pounds (maybe not a lot for some but enough for me) on a wild gamble on the Dow. I know the urge to recoup the loss. I know the sweaty palms, the palpitations, the heart in the throat. And the thrill of a big win.
Ironically, or probably more to say, rationally, my recent gains have been on the back of less screen time and more careful thought. Can I become sufficiently detached whilst still daytrading? I don't know. Do I need to see Gamblers Anonymous? Again, I don't really know. But I know that when I can tear myself away from the screen for a few hours, I actually start to discover other interests.
Now I have a choice, I can carry on as I have, or decide to make the market work for me by approaching it rationally, seeking only profit and not thrill, or walk away completely.
I am not at rock bottom. I can quite easily spend the next few weeks wildly gambling away the rest of my pot. But I don't have to. I can choose to take a step back and do some analysis. And return to the market when I have plans which I can defend.
DCB - your account is a timely reminder of that choice. I cannot say I will give up daytrading completely but I think I will spend more time planning longer term moves. I may wait a little though, currently the market is wild and may form new deep lows or bounce aggressively, or both.

robber - 20 Sep'02 - 00:09 - 10 of 329

DCB, what a great and thought provoking piece, I too have spent 100's of hours watching and back testing and developing systems only to see then go to pot when I try them for real. Dont know if its a phsycolgical thing yet as I still have a BIG problem with disciple. My rules may say I should close a losing trade but I hang on in the 'hope' that a bad trade will come good.
Perhaps a good trader is one who trades without hope!
Neil.
PS Hope you enjoy the bubbly you certainly deserve it

petec - 20 Sep'02 - 00:17 - 11 of 329

DCB - best of luck for plan E. I much prefer the long term approach myself. Personnaly I find charts much easier to read over the longer term. For example it seems blatantly obvious that most tech stocks (well actually most non tech stocks now) are in a long term decline, but on any one day or week they might rise. So getting it right at the micro level seems very hard to me.

MightyMicro - 20 Sep'02 - 00:29 - 12 of 329

>dcb I agree with M T Glass -- your post deserves publication to a wider audience. Try Ross Greenwood at Shares mag. He should pay you a fee!

MM

Mr Ashley James - 20 Sep'02 - 00:45 - 13 of 329

DCB,
Excellent post.
I have never ever been a day trader, I definitely would not even pretend I had the self discipline to do so.
At one of the last Glom TC meets, I asked one of the leading CFD houses what rate of return on equity the best trader on their books made, I said I do not want to know who it is, but I would like to know what annual return was the very best achievable in current markets, plus whether the person held positions as a day trader, a week trader, or a six week to three month trader.
The answer was unequivocably medium term, the ROE 18.50 times pa.
I have done far far better by holding on a minimum time frame of say 21 days plus, ideally 89 days, than I would have chopping and changing.
My 18 month to two year approach ie medium to long term hold has turned up annual gains of 600% on individual shares by stock selection.
In short I think the short term philosophy tends to eat into capital by overtrading on spread and transactional costs.
The richest man in the world Warren Buffet is a long term investor, not to my knowledge a day trader.
I set my self to enter a trade where risk/reward exceeds 10 to 1 within three years, and annual ROE exceeds 115% return, my trading short term tends to lose me money, you IMHO need to just take 25% to 50% gains to do so.
It really I think is necessary to set out what financial target you want to achieve as a return on capital risked, I do not personally use margin, though this may change in the future when I feel confident enough to use perhaps max 1 x gearing.
I am far from sure that day trading makes sense to 85% of traders, indeed I expect that casualty rate among them per annum.
Why not transfer your talents to investment research and not purely ta?
My gut feeling is that is is impossible to make more than 50 x pa, my realistic assessment says that limiting yourself to 5 maximum trades per month, ensuring preparation may prove more rewarding than up to 100 average diworsification trades.
When in doubt why trade at all?
I am kind of thinking out loud and greatly respect your honesty of just how difficult it is to day trade with large percentage of realistically achievable profit transactional costs, and I hope for you Plan E is a success.
I still think researching Warren Buffet may be of as much use to all of us as reading Reminiscences Of A Stock Operator personally.
Good luck however you trade
Best regards
Ashley

Brasseye114 - 20 Sep'02 - 01:12 - 14 of 329

Lightweight!















No, Im joking.
Excellent post DCB.Ive copied and stuck it up.Ive just started Daytrading using S/B``s with some good results so far!
I must admit the initial reaction is "It wont happen to me" But the odds and others experiences seem to suggest otherwise.
I stick to one Share RBOS now. Tedium to some I know. But I feel I know "Some" of its daily rhythms.
Wish I hadnt got up now for this cup of bitter tea.
Dont leave me on my own!;-)
Mr A. You used the F Word. Get behind thee Satan.
Lights out, night night.

theape - 20 Sep'02 - 01:26 - 15 of 329

very honest DCB.

if longer term charts work for you, then that is what you are successful at.
you have actually find your rythm ( and the free money), and can work as well.
That is a success in my book.
no point chasing the wrong career.
giving up daytrading is not defeat, but specialising in what you are successful at. nothing wrong with that mate and don't beat yourself up.
horses for courses, and if you're good at weekly charts stick to it. You are a success, because you have found what you are/ are not good at, and are specialising in the good. some people never do.
luv
ape


forwood - 20 Sep'02 - 01:29 - 16 of 329

dcb and ashley - great posts both.
tim 3 - 20 Sep'02 - 01:31 - 17 of 329

Dcb
Superb post I can relate to much of it.
I think that many people forget that futures are a zero win game for you to win someone else has to lose so in order to trade futures and win in the long term you don't just have to be good,you have to be better than the person on the other side of the trade and there are some very successful disciplined traders out there who not only understand the market but are skilled and experienced enough to take your money.
Infact my belief is that much of the money made in futures is new money that keeps coming into the market by people who think they can trade and indeed they may be able to,to a degree but nowhere near as well as the professionals.
I have also recently totally stopped trading futures as I admit I am not good enough to compete with them.You only have to look at the us thread to see how many posters have disappeared to realize how difficult it is.
I really respect the fact that you have taken time to post your decision as I think the majority of people when they fail just disappear I wish you well what ever you decide to do.
All above imo
Tim


r.dryden - 20 Sep'02 - 01:45 - 18 of 329

DCB,
It's a great relief to see your post.
I thought I was the only one who couldn't
get the hang of day trading.
Good luck with plan E.


Brasseye114 - 20 Sep'02 - 01:49 - 19 of 329

That or take one.:-)
Ive sent my nomination to Greystone for Post of the week.
Snowmann - 20 Sep'02 - 01:49 - 20 of 329

Excellent post DCB .
Funnily enough some of the skills you honed day trading might just give you an edge over a longer term and produce the return you deserve .
Hope so anyway , good luck to you .
pacman88 - 20 Sep'02 - 03:06 - 21 of 329

respect dcb.
pmeas - 20 Sep'02 - 03:25 - 22 of 329

DCB excellent post sorry it failed your expectations,the mind set required is that of a criminal,or should i say a criminal mind frame its all a game of bluff try playing cards blind with your dirtyist freinds for money when you now how to blag,then when ya play the markets infront of ya screen theres ya opposition,and the nerve of a burgalar.


moonblue - 20 Sep'02 - 05:13 - 23 of 329

i always knew my criminal record wood come in useful

Bullshare - 20 Sep'02 - 05:45 - 24 of 329

J; Wonderful post. Reading through it I can see many of the feelings I went through. Initial exuberance and total self belief. Initial success soon turns to losses as over confidence and emotion takes hold. You were lucky only your business suffered my home life got hard as I became a 24 hours trader and if it moved I traded it, UK then, US, then Japan, then Hong Kong. 12 years on I still get the odd urge to screen watch all day and when I do I become ill disciplined. My first 2 years all I did was put new money into a pot and lose it. Why, because it was money I could afford to lose, it would not effect my lifestyle if I did lose , so I did , simply by initially devaluing the real meaning of money. Made some great gains but ,oh just too many loses. Could not sell. Problem then was no CFDs or Spreadbetting so mostly T20s and I used up every day of that T20 and ended up buying in the stock rather than take the loss.
Funnily enough I became better when I joined ESI , because,ssssh, it was possible to ramp your position. No offence intended but even 4 years ago there were very few traders around but a lot of coat tailers.
Even now I change my trading style to suit the market and my lifestyle. I have some new businesses set up which means I can now no longer watch the screen all day. In truth when I do, I become ill disciplined. I love my family, work and trading too much to go back in time and trade everything. Experience does count and I know you now fit trading round your lifestyle and not the other way round. I love trading and in truth make as much now by doing an hour or two a day max, than ever I did full time. Why, because I am not chasing after the penny rises, I am taking more position trades(ideal as a shorter) but also doing scalp and spread trading till 9am.
I have total admiration for you because I know just how much time you have put into trading, and your determination to master the art of TA (also you are a brilliant and cheap printing house!!). What I also find amazing is the style of your posting above. Maybe its your and my age, but most people would have made the posting slightly vengeful and emotive, and blamed the markets etc etc, but your style points to a certain inner calm and acceptance. .DCB- I think you have now just become a great position trader.

M
PUGUGLY - 20 Sep'02 - 06:39 - 25 of 329

dcb:= Very thoughtful and useful post. All the best of luck with plan E. In these markets however anything can happen and usually does to the downside.
R.
Dolphins - 20 Sep'02 - 07:06 - 26 of 329

DCB
A great post, brings home many emotions, I always said you should
turn to writing, what a style!
Good luck

Moneybags - 20 Sep'02 - 07:31 - 27 of 329

Very Honest Posting.
Bullie,I thought you where taking it easy now.Your post was at 5.45am...!
I was still dreaming of red Ferarri's at that time.

Robbb - 20 Sep'02 - 07:37 - 28 of 329

DCB
An incredible post. What an astonishing moment of clarity you experienced. Occasionally here on the pbb there surfaces a posting which is so frank and insightful but also so personally honest it makes you sit and think in a way that is rare. Your thoughts are so pschologically self-aware that you seem to have reached a place all the books say you should for day trading i.e. perfect knowledge of your own mindset and being prepared to admit it to yourself. You should be, and have been above quite rightly, applauded for your brave post. You know quite a lot of people here but it is still baring your soul for public consumption.
My only hope is that you continue to frequent this establishment and I look forward to meeting you again in the future.

Best Regards
Rob

Orange1 - 20 Sep'02 - 07:46 - 29 of 329

dcb
all other considerations aside, your post is a great piece of prose. Could you try and exploit those writing skills maybe?

Dr Doolittle - 20 Sep'02 - 07:51 - 30 of 329

Plan F...
Give up work, and start being a writer.
Your pieces are always beautifully scripted, accurately phrased...and more importantly to me has managed to describe exactly the turmoil going on in my mind at present.
Thanks DrD

Orange1 - 20 Sep'02 - 08:10 - 31 of 329

DrD
Your plan is ... to give up work and read my mind!
O1


jeffmack - 20 Sep'02 - 08:23 - 32 of 329

dcd
I'm sure you will find your groove. Best of luck.
locket - 20 Sep'02 - 08:36 - 33 of 329

honest & articulate - a class posting,dcb


Tom.B - 20 Sep'02 - 08:42 - 34 of 329

I agree with Dr Doolittle, give up everything and become a writer...good luck

Skinny - 20 Sep'02 - 08:48 - 35 of 329

A very salutory posting - and for me, very timely.
rally - 20 Sep'02 - 09:08 - 36 of 329

DCB
I think your answer is look at who profited from your trading, your paragraph repeated :-
"I discovered Etrade (then ESI) and a year or so later I did a series of ADVFN technical analysis and trading courses with the excellent Limspfield Chartist and Bullshare (courses founded and organised by the inestimable Anthonyjb)."
Plus a small fortune spent on books and other courses to seemingly no avail.
Maybe many others profit from promoting the fact that money can be made.
The reality is it is a very small percentage who come through. Very few also admit the truth as to their losses.
One of the few investors of a serious nature to come through the last few turbulent years reasonably intact is WB and he is very much into perceived value.
Perhaps the answer is you set up a course in why you shouldn't trade and how if all the time spent learning how to try and make money fast was put into building a succesful business your net return could be far higher.
I think then you may well find the answer, as was mentioned at the "Weast Midlands Meeting" the other night - "Traders Anonymous".
Your post shows an addictive nature no different to a gambler with a good system.
I think you have made a giant step, however try this out :-
Work out the hours pumped into this scheme multiply them by a reasonable business chargeable rate and add your losses. The result is normally a telephone figure. That worked with me.

R
Blueflame - 20 Sep'02 - 09:08 - 37 of 329

Excellent post J. Very thought provoking. Good look with the new stategy.
I think you should post it on the Free BB aswell.
nc - 20 Sep'02 - 09:13 - 38 of 329

respec
Mr Charts - 20 Sep'02 - 09:22 - 39 of 329

>dcb,
Now that is what I call a wonderful piece of writing.
Several points, however:
The UK markets have been very very difficult over the last year or two, the US markets much easier, but temporarily slightly tougher in the last few weeks.
There are always opportunities intra-day both on US futures and stocks.
Look at yesterday with the EDS news. It was heavily marked down, but at 5pm our time finally broke down through key $20 support to plunge to $17.23 at close a superb evening swing trade. An ideal situation for your work/life style and the type of trading you are considering, but intra-day for a 15% gain rather than suffering the risk of an overnight position.
My point is it is worth considering fusing the two approaches to your advantage and the style that suits you personally.
In addition, I do feel you have been unduly self-critical these last several weeks have been the most difficult of trading environments, necessitating a quick smash and grab policy.
Whatever you do, you will succeed, you do have what it takes and I dont need to wish you "luck".
With great respect,
R.
orchid - 20 Sep'02 - 09:26 - 40 of 329

dcb, good luck with your new strategy. If you are more comfortable with it then it must be more rewarding for yourself.
There are an awful lot of people making money from daytrading, and an awful lot of them do not trade.
GAIN - 20 Sep'02 - 09:29 - 41 of 329

The house always wins


Taimur - 20 Sep'02 - 09:31 - 42 of 329

dcb,
Welcome back to the world of swing trading.
To daytrade you have to be completely dispassionate about events.
But in any case, there is still money to be made from the longer term time frames. Whoi went short on the DJ @ 10500? Overbought all over it and still not at bottom yet. :-)
And for that a 1 pp goes a long way, even with a spreadbetter and rollovers....
I too run my own business and I have not day traded now for the last 6 months, just too much work on.
But it doesn't mean I've not taken money from the current market. And every little bit helps.
Not to mention I actually bought some shares not so long ago. A strange habit to get back into, but they had VALUE stamped all over them.....!
Taimur

jl202 - 20 Sep'02 - 09:37 - 43 of 329

DCB, sounds like you went through everything in a thorough and professional manner and as such, using stops, your experiment won't have cost you to dearly. I guess you have to find out the hardway. I personally think index trading is a sport for bachellors, full time daytraders or the retired (Martini ;), there's no other way you can devote enough time to it. Sounds like you made a sensible decision,,
Regards

zenbudd - 20 Sep'02 - 09:41 - 44 of 329

DCB
Thank you for your excellent post. I find the idea of day trading very exiting, and was about to take steps to learn everything I can about trading, but thanks to you, before I spend my time and money on training courses,
I think I should learn everything I can about myself.
I suspect, you may have saved me from myself !
I thank you, and wish you good luck.


M.T.Glass - 20 Sep'02 - 10:00 - 45 of 329

Not 'giving up', dcb... 'moving on from'.
Horses f**k horses. (if you say it quick).
Can't always tell what ground a horse runs best on without testing it on some wrong ground.

Lucas Buck - 20 Sep'02 - 10:01 - 46 of 329

"I have failed over and over and over again in my life.
And that, is why I succeed"
Best of luck DCB, although somehow I don't think you'll need it now.
hi-there - 20 Sep'02 - 10:03 - 47 of 329

Great post dcb. So you can talk the talk and walk the walk, the only thing that seems to be missing is using money as a tool, unemotionally. I'm still a hopeless trader but I can totally detach myself from the money side. My down fall is the competition I have with myself. It is this need to do better within myself that means I can excel at all I choose to do, however Day-trading is more a discipline than an art and proving very difficult to master. I still haven't read any books or been on any courses. What would you recommend as the best three books for me to read.


Biffer - 20 Sep'02 - 10:06 - 48 of 329

It needs posts like this to be made occasionally to give all aspiring day traders a reality check. It's very easy to read the various traders threads and think "that looks easy, I can do that". The reality is very different from the theory.
Well said DCB, and good luck in your next move.


bpoole - 20 Sep'02 - 10:08 - 49 of 329

Great post J. I tried daytrading index futures for a short time but I am
a bad loser and I give up easy.
As Rally said, 80% of daytraders lose money, and of the rest very few make a
fortune. I'm sure Limpy told you that.
I wish you all the best and hope to see you at EAMRIC.


Cat - 20 Sep'02 - 10:12 - 50 of 329

tip-top stuff dcb - I guess we can all relate to your story.


rd-racer - 20 Sep'02 - 10:30 - 51 of 329

DCB, I admire your honesty in admitting that you are not cut out to be a day trader, I sat next to you on the Success Events day trading day, I remember your high level of excitement and how you felt you had found your true destiny. On the other hand I was totally ill at ease and realised immediately that this was not for me, even though we were only playing with pretend money. I think after an hour you had made many "trades" whilst I was still looking at the screens seeing nothing. I have since had odd goes at day trading but cannot stand the stress of it, so I only do a small amount of position trading (with limited success) I think my most successful move this year has been to stay in cash since May and have a lot of holidays (I'm early retired)I've not made any money this summer but I have not lost it either. For a person to admit their own failings is one of the hardest things to do, respect is due. Good luck with plan E.


Robert
Harry Kaplan - 20 Sep'02 - 10:33 - 52 of 329

DCB -- Somehow I have the feeling that after a break of some weeks/ months, you will be back in there, with a much less ambitious, but more successful result. I have found that being content with just a small gain regularly helps keeps confidence up, and spending far more time watching out for shares that are running out of steam & ready for a good short. Good post DCB.


kobarclay - 20 Sep'02 - 10:50 - 53 of 329

Trading is profession where a remarkable degree of self-honesty is required. You need to look at various reasons like WHY you are trading... Are you trading for profit? This is not as dumb a question as it sounds. Of course we all trade because we want to make a profit. Back to being honest with yourself I'm afraid. So I'll ask again. WHY are you trading? Are you trading because you like the excitement and thrill? Are you putting on a trade because you had an argument with your partner and because it just makes you feel better? Are you trying to prove something? Do you seek approval from others?
Seek answers from within and it will help you become more self-actualised. You will need to become self-actualized in order to become a successful trader. If you are suffering from inner conflict in other areas of your life like relationships/money, it will make your life as a trader that much harder. Take it from me. I've *been there*!!



hi-there - 20 Sep'02 - 11:09 - 54 of 329

Kobarcaly: good post. For me personally I am supposed to be trading for the financial reward, but am I? For the most part, I believe I am trading for the challenge. I stayed out of the markets for a while and on coming back almost doubled my pot within a month, not over trading either and exceeding all targets and becoming unreal. I had the feel good factor, everything. Master of the universe was back I couldn't possibly be wrong, only 2 small losses towards the end of the first month. Same old mistake, I proved I could do it and so looked for a challenge that I could not defeat. "THE DOW" Due to losing money time and again on the dow in the past the psychological effect on my trading is enormous and the same mistakes are repeated.
Why do it?
Why am I trading?



M.T.Glass - 20 Sep'02 - 11:35 - 55 of 329

It can be a bit like the pleasure got from the challenge of seeing how many plates one can simultaneously spin on top of sticks, and then how many can be safely collected again without too many breakages. I am aware that that mentality might well be in play with my own approach, in which I tend to open more and more positions over a couple of weeks (like the thirty ongoing weekly/quarterly downbets I had in place overnight after starting September with nearly none) and then enjoy reeling them in, until I get back down to none or almost none, and then setting out again (or happily taking some time out).
I am aware of the oddity of this approach and am watching myself from the sidelines while doing it! Very few breakages lately, but a squally twister like the one that blew across the stage this morning can be a useful reminder of what can happen to plates on sticks.



kobarclay - 20 Sep'02 - 11:51 - 56 of 329

..just adding to my post above, being honest with yourself is important because it avoids problems like conflicts of interest and understanding the real reasons of why you are trading or are why placing a particular trade. This will help with your trading decisions as well as other important decisions in life. It will all help to achieve ones' goal of being able to make unbiased, uncolored and umemotional decisions. Emotional decisions will get you into trouble in the long run. ALWAYS. Learn how to interpret information dispassionately.



morrisminor - 20 Sep'02 - 11:57 - 57 of 329

dcb
In common with everybody else I would like to congratulate you on what must be the best posting ever on any bulletin board.What is particularly gratifying is that it drew a whole host of excellent postings from people showing understanding,wisdom and sympathy. From a personal standpoint I recently retired from the City after 40 years variously as an analyst,fund manager and institutional salesman which one would have thought would have given me enough experience to trade succesfully on a personal basis as a hobby.However ,I found short term trading extremely difficult as the tendency is to chase a trade because it feels right without knowing the real fundamentals behind the Company and what makes it tick.My strategy now is to concentrate on a maximum of 10 FTSE100 shares where the underlying fundamentals are impeccable and to ensure that I am totally up to speed with all matters that are share price sensitive,be it financial,political,economic,social,competition,industrial etc.
Only in that way can I feel comfortable that if it does not work short term I am in a quality stock that will in due course correct itself ,quite often in no more than a couple of days.I am aware that this may appear fairly obvious and simplistic but it does massively reduce the risk and means that I can sleep soundly.Preservation of capital is all important as you can then live to fight another day.
Good luck to you in the future .




Packer - 20 Sep'02 - 12:09 - 58 of 329

Thank you dcb.
P.
MrWonderful - 20 Sep'02 - 12:44 - 59 of 329

dcb...what a fascinating post,what rare honesty.
I love the analogy between heat of the moment phone conversations and short term trading v controlled and thought out letter writing and longer term trading.
All the luck with your new time frame,though with your technical knowledge and undoubted intelligence you wont need it.
regards

Glenn
Gausie - 20 Sep'02 - 13:01 - 60 of 329

dcb ... a wonderful post; But the best part of giving up is when you start again ;-)



Blackhawk - 20 Sep'02 - 13:11 - 61 of 329

dcb - An excellent read and very thought provoking. Any chance you could post your initial article to the Free BB as well? There are people there who have asked to read it and I would not wish to copy your thoughts and experiences. So I think it would be very good if you would kindly post it there too please. A very good set of lessons for everybody to take in.




Captain Scarlet 2 - 20 Sep'02 - 13:37 - 62 of 329

DCB - I am in awe of your honesty. I agree with the man who said this is the best post on any board - Ever.
Just a couple of phrases that I try to banish from my mind....
1. "It's different this time....."
2. "It's alright, it will bounce back.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
PS Point 1 especially applies to the property market right now!




Acecard - 20 Sep'02 - 13:43 - 63 of 329

DCB,
Excellent post, which has stimulated some thought provoking responses.
This thread is going to be added into my Favourites folder. I'm sure there are many traders that can relate to your story.
You decision is no defeat, it's just a change of approach. There's a great book called 'Who Moved My Cheese' by Spencer Johnson, which tells a story of four characters who react in different ways and at different times to the same situation. It well worth reading - I think you'll appreciate the analogies in this story with your position.
Focus on your strength's and every success with Plan E.
Russell
PS: I agree with others that your post is worthy of publication



royce - 20 Sep'02 - 13:54 - 64 of 329

DCB,
Excellent post! You are without doubt an excellent writer. i have enjoyed reading your posts especially the 'Dairy of a Swing Trader'[still waiting for part 2] and how not to buy a car lol :-)))


GREYSTONE - give this man a drink, this must be the poster of the week.



Limpsfield Chartist - 20 Sep'02 - 14:02 - 65 of 329

Excellent post DCB.
I think day trading is so attractive because like with all trading it looks easy - buy low sell high etc. And if you can condense that down to a one day time frame, and take just 5 measly points out of the S&P every day at $50 a point, happy days. The reality of course is somewhat different.
When I first started trading futures I day-traded the real market as and when I had the time, and position traded smaller size through spread bets. The position trading was more profitable than the day trading. So..I spent more time on the day trading..And also trading "as and when you have the time", is bollocks - you have to take it seriously whatever your time frame is. That doesn't mean you have to be glued to a screen all day - does more harm then good for most - but if you are going to go through the FTSE 350 once a week looking for trades, then you have to stick to it.
I think day trading (no overnight positions) is a real art. And the classic attributes of discipline, confidence, a strategy etc etc are even more important. If one is not profitable from investing/position/swing trading, I will lay money every time that if that person takes up day trading they will lose. It's always an interesting experiment to look back on some of the shorter term trading threads on this board from a couple of years ago and see the enormous number of people who don't post anymore. Draw your own conclusions.
Position trading is no holy grail either though - it's still hard.I like it because I, even when day trading, would look at the bigger moves. Plus it opens up a wider range of shares/markets to trade. And you don't have to be stuck in front of a screen all day.
I look forward to your "position trading paid for my sunseeker" thread!
DJ
rally - 20 Sep'02 - 14:16 - 66 of 329

LC


The man that runs the UK franchise for Sunseeker makes enough cash to buy 350k rally cars without concern.
He makes his money from selling boats not day trading.
Profit = Sales - (Purchases+Time)
Time never seems to be brought into the equation.....
May I ask where do you make more money, trading or courses ?
R



Limpsfield Chartist - 20 Sep'02 - 14:19 - 67 of 329

Rally - both, but 80% of it from trading this year.
-edit - just re-read your question properly - trading is the more important in terms of



bones - 20 Sep'02 - 14:19 - 68 of 329

DCB, thanks for your thoughts. I will (like others) have this thread saved for reality check purposes! Hopefully, you have benefitted personally from laying out your thoughts - a bit of therapy. Good luck!
Best regards
Bones
PS I have just moved to Norfolk so I hope to see you at one of the local functions soon :)
EDIT: not a cattle market, to pre-empt city dweller jokes!



Kayak - 20 Sep'02 - 14:19 - 69 of 329

rally, I believe that Limpy has previously posted that he makes most of his money selling books, in a reply to a diatribe by Execline if I remember correctly :-)
Mr Potato Head - 20 Sep'02 - 14:26 - 70 of 329

He's also been known to take the odd turn down the 'dilly when times are particularily hard
Icerr - 20 Sep'02 - 14:59 - 71 of 329

DCB
The transparency in your post gives a cracking insight on your experiences(emotions)to date,thanks for that.
You mention that your psychology is wrong,I agree!.When you received some 1 on 1 coaching,Im sure one of the first things to get straight was your reason for trading at all,do you remember what the reason was?
"I sit in front of the screen with sweating palms and my heart in my mouth whenever I'm in a trade."
Well that sums up how I feel when my flight is about to take off or land and after years of torture I think I have worked out what it is that makes me this way when flying.It is not a fear of death so much as its the fear of not being in control of my death!.The sweating palms,fast beating heart are a sign that you cant completely trust yourself to do the right thing at the right time I would think,more than an inability to trade in short time frames.
"Last night, I got home and fired up the daytrading software. Sat in front of the screen with sweating palms and thumping heart. Watched the S&P and realised, with a sudden feeling of release, that I had no idea where the price was going so any trade would be a gamble. The bubble had burst. I no longer felt the need to be a daytrader."-
well I think thats a shame cos last night was last night and after 3+ years of staying in the game you will have started to get thatgut feelfrom time to time when certain situations seem somewhat familiar,only you wont take advantage of them.I used to think that changing timeframes was the answer,but it wasnt for me.The most important part for me was acceptance(I mean complete submission!)that within a mad world of random moves,manipulation,trends,spikes,bb pump&dumps etc etc there is one area that I have complete control(bar slippage)and that is over how much I lose.
When you stop beating yourself up over not being able to control market action but trust your own reaction,things become fun and although Ill get slated by the ta boffs you can start to trust your intuitive experience often long before the squiggly lines confirm what you already knew!
I hope these longer timeframes are the answer for you but cant help thinking that all those years screen watching have now given you an edge with intuition on intra day punts which crop up from time to time,which you will not benefit from.I try not to let timeframes dictate a trade for me as its not relevant.I cannot control where price goes in the next 10 minutes any more than I can the next 10 days,but how much I decide to lose is completely within my own hands,its my choice,my rules.Ive accepted that as fact.

Ps I seem to have read many of the books you mention and have enjoyed them all.Whenever things get a little blurry around the edges I find a flick through the old ajb/success events manuals seem to do the trick,4 years on and still think there be wisdom in them there manuals!



Mr Charts - 20 Sep'02 - 15:39 - 72 of 329

Also a brilliant post by Icerr esp paras 5 & 6
And maybe these words are worth thinking about:-
"5. You must set yourself achievable targets and visualise yourself being a successful trader. You need to believe you can do it. If your attitude is that youll just try, you wont succeed. If you do not believe in yourself, no-one else will. Take what the market offers you and dont be greedy. If theres only one point in a trade take it great. One trade at a time. Set an easy target and achieve it day after day. You must see yourself being a winner. You are NOT diminished as a person by a losing trade. Learn to love them their smallness will give you strength.
6. Remember you cannot control the market you are helpless against it. All you can control is yourself emotions and trading behaviour - and that is the foundation of success. If you can control those factors, learn the tools, when and how to use them, you WILL succeed.
This profession is about self-control and attitude.
Think about that."


Mr. Charts



jeffmack - 20 Sep'02 - 17:08 - 73 of 329

DCB
Looks like Greystone has been swayed by the masses. Enjoy the champagne and congrats on "Poster of the Week"



Bloakey - 20 Sep'02 - 17:30 - 74 of 329

Dead Cat Bounce - 19 Sep'02 - 23:18
Good post and it must be a contender for the post of the week.
When all is said and done you have had great sucess at recognising your own psychological makeup and doing something about it, namely stopping the day trading.
I lost a small fortune prior to the recent downward trends, I eventually recouped my losses by sticking with a few shares that I thought I could 'predict' and when the FTSE fell below 5000 I converted what I had to cash and ducked my nut. I am now making a few quid predicting the FTSE and sticking with a few shares that rise and fall with the market. I do have the discipline and tend to err on the cautious nowadays, throwing money away on a whim and a ramp is not my thing.
Thanks for your honesty and I wish you all the best in the future, you will probably find that life beyond the monitor is a nice place and when all is said and done it is only money!



sw11 - 20 Sep'02 - 17:33 - 75 of 329

saw the headline, thought I would drop in. For those who trade the UK market this was one of the most extraordinary days ever. I have never seen so many opportunities, SETs order book gyrations this morning, anyone who left orders on the book was richly rewarded for their provision of liquidity, sharp moves in stocks involved in the index changes in FTSE 100 and All-share particularly in the afternoon, check out intra-day chart in AUN and PUB, and an exclusive from breakingviews.com on Six Continents that came out by email at 12:30 when the stock was 567p, traded up to 592p, that one trade paid for a whole year's subscription and more. Even got involved in France and sold Lafarge and bought Pinault Printemps this pm, check out the 3 day relative performance as Lafarge is put in to the Dow Stoxx 50 Index and Pinault removed effctive tonight. Will look to unwind on Mon/Tues.
I believe there has never been a better time for the private trader, very exciting. Good w/e all. And good trading.

Moneybags - 20 Sep'02 - 18:48 - 76 of 329

DCB....If Greystone sends you vino Blanco , Just tell me and I will send in the hit squad.Toast the rest of us poor sods left here in market limbo.....
Regards , .........Bags



BYRDSONG - 20 Sep'02 - 19:06 - 77 of 329

dcb
I, like many others, recognised a lot of myself in what you said. The only time I lost was trading s&p minis. I can recommend shares and positional trading in longer time frames than a day. Making money consistently with such an approach has cured me of any interest in trading the indices. I don't like gambling and that's what it is.
Best of luck.


dailos - 20 Sep'02 - 19:26 - 78 of 329

dcb and all
does anyone object if i get this thread circulated on the notice boards at the LSE?
Great read and will be invaluble learning to others
Best wishes


d.

hi-there - 20 Sep'02 - 19:42 - 79 of 329

Just re-read my post to check dailos. I don't mind. I wrote trading is more a dicipline than an art. I suppose the psychology behind it can be explained in so many ways. A simple example which any can relate to without any knowledge of trading is:-
You are in a relationship whereas you agree to react or not react in a certain way given a certain set of circumstances. However every now and then you don't think, it's too late and you slip up. The discipline is gone for that moment and the consequences can be catastrophic especially if you try to add to it to make it better. If you are lucky you may just get by unscathed.
domperignon - 20 Sep'02 - 20:48 - 80 of 329

Very interesting thread, and many a thing said by posters I also recognize in myself. For me the biggest challenge is the psychology of it all , and just how much even slight 'moodchanges ' affect my trading I realizend when having read Ari Kiev, the best book on the psychology of trading IMHO, (and I have read a few). The key is knowing oneself , being brutally honest with oneself and above all taking the necessary action . This sometimes means not trading or trading very small. Detachment is also absolutely essential, as without it objecitivty cannot be achieved, alas, it is , certainly for me one of the most difficult things and I have to contiunually work at it.
If one's primary reason to trade is to make, money, and it is mine,it does not matter whether one daytrades, position trades, swing trades or whatever, it is an egotrip to say I am going to become a daytrader, Oh yes, it is.
It helps to enjoy what one does , of course, and it ought to be fun, if it isn't one might as well get some other job, but ultimately, IMHO, if the prime reason is not making money, the reason for trading invariably is some sort of egotrip, however well camouflaged...and one is not going to be able to be very objective in one's trading decisions.
Believe me I have been there, got the T shirt, the video, the book, blah,blah....
hi-there - 20 Sep'02 - 21:19 - 81 of 329

domperignon: You must obviously write speeches and from the way that was written, you write for yourself. You clearly know how few people know their grammar and punctuation.


the wah - 20 Sep'02 - 21:40 - 82 of 329

DCB, commiserations. It is humbling to see one of the most respected members of this board admit defeat, despite all your study and experience, maybe it is a mugs game, Dodddy excepted.;-) I hope that you don't stop posting.
Best Wishes, The Wah


Spaceman - 20 Sep'02 - 23:47 - 83 of 329

Hi DCB, you have prompted me into a now rare delurk! Your post echo's my situation except that in my case I realised that it was all trading that I had the wrong attitude for rather than just day trading. The last few years have been a revelation to me mainly because the mysteries of trading and the finance world in general have become clearer, I haven't really liked what I have found.
I was with you at one of RobinT's courses in mid 2000 although I loved the course that day was the point for me when I realised that I shouldn't be trading. Like many people I wanted to be able to do something else, I dreamt it might be trading but I was wrong. I now realise the best way to make money for me is to do what I have done for 20 plus years because I can do it fairly well and the risks are low.
I still hang around on the edges of this board, I make the odd trade normally of boring things like MKS, I haven't made any huge gains but I haven't lost much either. Its much more fun and a lot less stressful.
So DCB good luck with your new plan.


Seymour Clearly - 21 Sep'02 - 00:11 - 84 of 329 edit

the wah,
dont think this is defeat at all. We all have talents, dcb's are different to what he expected or hoped for. I think he has finally admitted what he suspected all along. Daytrading has a glamorous ring to it, and for those that succeed it is highly profitable - but it is high risk as well and there are those, myself included, who don't like risk, no matter what sort of enticing wrapper it has on.
I am in a situation where my Professional career is at a crossroads and I have a decision to make. In my heart I really liked the idea of being a daytrader, and surely it isn't that difficult to make 250 a day or more - but in my head I knew I would never do it well - I'm not calm enough. But I still hanker to do it. Reading DCB's post has made me realise that I am just like him, and my best option is position / swing trading and keep my career going.
I also waste an incredible amount of time reading the daytraders thread post by post, when my time would be better spent going through Sharescope each evening to work out what I should or should not trade in the coming few days / weeks.
DCB, thank you for your post - it has made me realise what I also knew all along - that daytrading never was and never will be something I should consider.
I thought I should nominate you for poster of the week just in case no-one else read this thread, but didn't realise what a huge response this would cause. Post of the year imho!!!
When the bubbly arrives, I hope you savour it well, your honesty has been refreshing.
Cheers

Seymour
M.T.Glass - 21 Sep'02 - 01:47 - 85 of 329

Seymour - that round figure of 250 a day you mention is not far from my average without daytrading and its associated stresses. Just from s/betting (weekly/monthly/quarterly) on UK (mostly non-SETS) stocks, mostly at 10 a point (max so far 50 on BGY at one stage).
Back in the very early days of computer games, when the only choice was between that tennis/pingpong game played slow, or the same game played faster, my brain was never quick enough to cope with more than the slowest setting. And that was several decades ago, so I'm even slower now! And I know it. I couldn't hope to get my head around daytrading and the quickness of decision-making it requires. Nor risk the size of stake needed to exploit tiny movements minute by minute. I use no software except end-of-day Sharescope. I try to bank a four-figure sum every week, even if that means part-closing some good positions (a bird in the hand, etc). It's a profitable hobby from which I have no problem walking away for a month (did no trading in August).
I've not yet been on any training courses and not read many relevant books. So I guess there is a better living I could make if I applied myself more professionally every month of the year. And I'm not the least bit bothered if others meantime regard me as no more than a smalltime backwoods player. I've always been able to grin and shrug my shoulders. I enjoy watching fellow BB-ers doing the daytrading stuff but I'm not tempted to join in. Though I do sometimes close bets within a day when I feel like it.
Would I go in for daytrading in search of bigger quicker gains? Nah. I'll settle for modestly scaling up what I do already. This is adventurous enough for me!
hi-there - 21 Sep'02 - 03:29 - 86 of 329

.
Grimbo - 21 Sep'02 - 09:35 - 87 of 329

Nice post dcb - for the last two years I have been convinced the market was going lower (and still am) when many others were supposedly bullish. However, time/work/family constraints mean I don't day trade or even go short and thus instead took the (slightly frustrating) decision to be largely out of the market (with one or two speculative exceptions as a hedge).
However, if my time constraints hadn't been there I have little doubt I would have been shorting (which I think takes considerably more time/research than going long) and possibly starting to day trade. My point is that I am doubly glad that I did not as I believe the market for the last two years has been particularly crazy and full of suprises (from a historical and charting perspective) and really tough to predict. I have been constantly suprised at short term price movements and my gut instinct has usually been wrong. So I wouldn't lose hope in your training and ability -I think sometimes you just have to accept that there are times when its not your type of market and do exactly what you are doing now - taking a break/changing strategy.
No question though - in any market - money management and discipline are key.
w.bramley - 21 Sep'02 - 11:11 - 88 of 329

Excellent reading on this BB, and because of the subject "trading" I wonder if any reader could help me.
I am mainly an invester who will trade if the opportunity arises, and to help me,I make us of ALERTS, setting buy and sell targets.
On Friday while concentrating on the Monitor page, I missed an ALERT which was sent by e.mail, and by the time I was aware of it, the price had gone back up.
Could any member of ADVFN suggest how I can be aware of a triggered ALERT by adding a column to the Monitor columns?
I have asked the help line, but as yet have only received the automatic reply.


sbs - 21 Sep'02 - 12:58 - 89 of 329

DCB - A very generous post. One of the skills I have learned when managing people is making people aware that the things they want to be good at or think they are good at are not necessarily the things they are good at. So if Day Trading is the glamorous 100m race, I've always enjoyed the 800m and upwards, which have more strategy element. On a slightly different point, at University I once set up a stock exchange game, with about 60 traders. The ones who spent the most time did best (or was it the other way round?). I think this shows the extra understanding it takes to tell the difference between a plausible trade and a correct trade. As for emotional involvement in trades, my "system" fits on a spreadsheet. I often make the most money when everyone is running in the opposite direction - quite a thrill :-) PS Sorry it's all one paragraph, but this gadget can't do new lines on ADVFN - I'll edit it later.



Dead Cat Bounce - 21 Sep'02 - 16:30 - 90 of 329

I would be lying if I said I wasn't amazed at the response this thread has attracted. Obviously my thoughts have struck a chord with a lot of other people. I would also be lying if I said I wasn't immensely flattered by the kind thoughts expressed by people I am in awe of and by people I haven't yet met. Thank you everyone (yes even Ashley James) for making this an awesome thread and reminding us just how good this BB can be.
Most people have made general, and very incisive, points that don't require an answer from me, but there were one or two specific questions I would briefly like to answer. Can I recommend 3 books? There are loads of threads about books (all of which can be purchased at no discount whatsoever from Limpsfield Chartist) and lists of favourites are very subjective. For TA, I think Technical Analysis of Stock Trends by Edwards & Magee is actually more readable than Murphy, so I'd go for that one. The very best trading psychology book is Trading in the Zone by Mark Douglas. Its a bit weird, but boy does he tell it like it is. Third choice is difficult. A toss up between Market Wizards (Schwager), Reminiscences of a Stock Operator (Lefevre) and Trading for a Living (Elder).
To the delight of a few, and to the chagrin of many, I'm certainly not leaving the BB or giving up trading, just giving up daytrading. I will certainly be posting about chart patterns on US stocks.
Dailos - you want to put the thread up on notice boards at the LSE? Is that the biggest ego stroke I could possibly have or what???? Be my guest. And be sure not to forget to tell them that autographed photographs of Dead Cat Bounce can be purchased from the office of ADVFN :-)
Someone said that had I devoted as much time to my business as I devoted to trying to be a daytrader then I would have made steady profits and not had the stress. I know that and it was a conscious choice. I would not have missed one single second of my "education" and as Bullie and others said above, it will probably make me a better position trader. Sure, if I'd stuck to just doing my dayjob I'd probably be better off, but then learning new things is what life is all about and I would have missed out on being part of this BB if I wasn't interested in trading.
One or two have said that it's a pity I gave up when all the time spent studying and watching would just be paying dividends in giving me intuition into the price action of the futures market. That also is probably true, but misses the point about my psychology not being suited to the time frame of one minute bars (or even 10 minute bars). I can continue the stress of daytrading in the hope that my intuition will get better o

Its Dead cat Bounce`s post Porky.Ive yet to reach the same conclusion.Buts it makes great reading

ttt