This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

?

Jesus.. thats just depressing.

Those that blame the west for a bunch of madmen wandering into a market and blowing themselves up - what exactly is it that the terrorists want???
I am so confused. Killing ones countrymen does not seem a fantastic way of getting rid of an occupying power.
I really cannot understand why a muslim would think he was furthering the cause of Islam, by slaughtering other muslims!! If they simply stopped and allowed the elections (overseen by an independant international body), the allies would leave and the country would be run on whatever mandate the new government stood on, by a muslim parliament.
Could it be that the real aim of the terrorists is civil war, for their own greedy ends? Or perhaps they consider a muslim parliament too liberal for their tastes, even though it would be the wish of the people they profess to represent? after all the British Muslim parliament has been denounced by the radical group as too liberal.
I can hear the keyboards now, rattling away with protests that the parliament would be a puppet of the allies. So easy to prove what hasn't happened yet, or never did happen. The truth is the parliament would be as close to the allies as it wanted to be. the international electoral commission has devised the rules and make up of such an election, and the requirements for allied withdrawl. It is out of the hands of the allies to have any favoured status or not, to have any strings on the government or not, and certainly to have any input in the elections.
So there we have it. if you really do want a Muslim state free of the allies, simply stop murdering each other and blaming everyone except yourselves. You will then have it. unless your campaign is for other reasons.
Alan

I'm surprised that people -guided by the media- are trying to connect the dire situation in Iraq with Blair. The tories would have done exactly the same. The right wing media in this country are just trying to find something to beat labour with. If Cameron was PM they would be in favour of the Iraq war. They think if they can get rid of Blair, then Brown will not become PM because he's Scottish and so the tories will win. But they're being myopic. If Brown doesn't become PM because middle England will not accept a Scottish PM then Scotland will rightly see it as a snub, implying that Scots are not as British as English people and Scotland could vote for independence. The tories should be careful what they wish for. Britain would go bankrupt without Scottish oil, gas, and electricity. Look at the price of oil at the moment. 90% of it all is Scottish, the rest of the UK would be in severe trouble and the politicians knowit .I'm surprised the media and some tories think England is subsidising Scotland. This is nonsense. England would have gone bankrupt thirty years ago if it wasn't for the oil. A bit of gratitude would be nice please!!!

I think the point trying to be made is that it's a self fulfilling prophecy..
in that west (christianity) invades east(islam), east(poor, in need of leadership/development/education/western ideals) does what west(heathen, lost, wayward,greedy,anti-god) expects and commits attorocities i.e. suicide bombings, therefore west is right and carries on what it's doing thereby leading to mad mullah's having ammunition to brainwash ill educated and seriously pissed off iraq'is into killing, and on we go.
As for iraqi's killing each other,well theres SHI'ITES and theres SUNNI's. A bit like catholics and protestants.Welcome to the new Northern Ireland.
LOL

Except the prophecy idea forgets that 9/11 was prior to the Iraq war, and was certainly down to Muslims.
It also helps provide ammunition for those who think the media are lying out of their teeth half the time. A big question from 9/11 was about the third tower that collapsed. This was trumpeted in the media as proof positive that it was some kind of US conspiracy to promote a war on Islam. The third tower was evacuated, and collapsed because emergency services had neither the manpower or the ability to get to it and put out the fires started by burning debris from the twins. It collapsed because it burned itself to the ground. it did not collapse because the CIA blew it up, as some from the media would have us believe.

what did iraq have to do with 9/11 or war on terrorism/al qaeda prior to invasion?
9/11 was down to terrorists who were muslims. Does'nt make every muslim a terrorist or islam a religion of terror.Unless of course you believe the popular press.
lol

Bush, Blair portray themselves as Christian, the Israeli government portray themselves as members of the Jewish Faith. They are responsible for recent and ongoing atrocities. In my opinion and the opinion of many others, they have knowingly committed murder, atrocious war crimes. They should be tried by an international court.

I feel that they would be found guilty and a fitting punishment would be to work as orderlies on the hospitals caring for the maimed they have been responsible for producing.

I think Israel's use of cluster bombs in in Lebanon was equivalent to the atrocities committed by the Nazis in WW2. The result will be that there will be little sympathy for terrorist actions if they occur in Israel.

It is not the religion which are at fault but the abuse of it by corrupt leadership.

We in Britain and America have elected corrupt government and we as the electors bear the responsibility.

After the killing, people will have to sit and talk to one another and mourn the loss of their own dead.

Jeez eat more fish my son, you have a severe shortage of brain cells......

Jihad du Jour (News of the Day)


Muslims in Thailand Rack Up 1,700 Dead in 2 Years...
Terror Attack in Jordan by Man Yelling, 'Allah Akbar!'...
Pakistani Man Poisons Wife, Daughters...
CAIR Has $50 Million Makeover...
Hezbollah Child Killer May Walk...
U.S. Responds to Disingenuous 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists...
Martyrs Wanted (Must be Between 10 and 15-Years-Old)...
Aussie Muslims Threaten Riots...

Islamic Terror's War on You
Five Filipino Troops Killed by Islamic Militants Sheltering Bali Bombers...
al-Qaeda in Iraq's No. 2 Man Captured...
Amnesty Deal for Algerian Fundamentalists Upsetting Survivors, Families...
Holy Jihad Brigade Vows to Keep Capturing Non-Muslims and Force Them to Convert...
al-Qaeda Believed to be Planning New Bombings at Egyptian Resorts...
UK: New Batch of Muslims, New Terror Plot, New Arrests (at Religious School)...
Morocco Thwarts Terror Plot, but Islamists Gaining Strength...

The Real 2006
'Iraq Body Count'

Iraqi civilians killed this year by Islamic Terrorists
8,256

Iraqi civilians killed collaterally by Americans
59*

In three years of fighting some 200,000 people have been killed, according to the UN, and more than two million driven from their homes. Mainly blacks and non muslims. Darfur.... What do you think tweenie/freddie boy should we send tthe troops in or let them carry on with the genocide?

Fred, we covered that one. there is no chance that there will be a trial, because apart from a few strange journalists, the vast majority of the world favoured the action. Learn to live with being in a very small minority.
Tweenie,
9/11 started the international war on terrorism. It did not exist on 9/10, and did on 9/12. As for Iraq, they were sponsoring terrorism, both within their own borders and internationally. Intelligence reports suggested that iraq were trying to develop WMD and their leader would not allow full and free inspections, which he had agreed to under a treaty bearing his signature. The world voted to invade and that is what happened. It is all very simple and clear fact that has been muddied by a media with their own personal agenda who manipulate the thoughts and fears of people like Fred and yourself, just as much as the mad mullahs manipulate the muslims.
Don't bother with a reply of indignation. I have had months on this thread of Fred telling me that journalists are holy truth seekers and politicians are scheming and lying and that if I only opened my eyes...............The truth is that journalists are very probably the most deceitful bunch the world has ever seen and if only you would all open your eyes. It works either way you want it to. The difference is one of who you will believe. me I'll go with the signed mandate of the UN and the word of the vast majority of world leaders who were privy to information we may be lucky enough to see in 30 years time. If you all want to choose to listen to a few burned out hacks, who stoop to faking photographs and making up stories to ell a few more of their rags, then fine.

(1) War crime trials are a modern form of triumph parades purposed for the self congratulations, justifications and propaganda of the strong over the weak.

(2) Stories and reports on when and whether Blair should step down demonstrated again that politicians (PM, MPs, etc) put the interest of the party above the interests of the country, and puts the interests of the party leader above the interests of the party.

(3) It is funny how soldiers had to obey orders from whose to whom they had not swear allegiance.

(4) There is no doubt Blair had been quietly groomed for decades. I wonder who is now being groomed and how ???

Barwoni and H6, I wonder how much projection is contained in your postings.

Just wondering.

When we read the varoud journals and watch the television, it seems that we believe what suits our positions or purposes.

Thats the point, fred. you have quoted many sources with the unshakable belief that they are 100% honest with no hidden agenda. there is no such person.
Any war is distasteful, but that does not make it wrong!! In this instance it made it the lesser of 2 evils. The arguments agianst it ring to me of killing the good in the search for the perfect. the perfect does not exist.
You have chosen to side with the anti war side. That is your choice and i respect that. You will find a million and one articles to justify it. I have chosen that I believe the pro war side. I can find a million and one articles to support that. we can each find articles to rubbish the other. I can show you journalists and UN officials prosecuted and sacked for lying and you can do the same with our political leaders.
this means nothing. I can find a million and one articles to say that a large % of the human race is of alien origin, but that does not make it true.
In the end, a majority, not just of this country, but of the world, voted for the action that was taken. if you believe in democracy then you must support the democratic view, regardless of whether you agree with it. that is the nature of a democracy. The real question now is how we deal with the aftermath. indeed, your header question could be replaced with one asking if those who support the Iraqi insurgance and the terrorist activities should be charged with treason.
Alan

Alan.
I take your point.
would add this, used flawed intelligence (no wmd's-no terrorist training camps)- Why not SYRIA- known to have both , why not N KOREA? WHY NOT IRAN?
has only made situation worse.
As a westerner I now feel we (uk) have isolated ourselves further from reality due to our continued brown noseing of USA.
The largest sponsor or world terrorism over past 50 years has been the USA.
Or have we forgotten about El- salvador/nicuagua/cuba/afganistan for god sakes they even allowed funds and arms to the IRA. Or is this excusable on the grounds that USA is/was spreading democracy. LOL

As for bawoani- you sir are a sick puppy. FOAD.

peace

"Democracy is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong."
(cannot remember the source)

Otherwise ...

"Justice without force is impotent, force without justice is tyranny" - Pascal

Which leads to ...

"Democracy passes into despotism." - Plato

First one. if a democracy chooses to do something, then it is the will of the majority. Who gives the minority the right to take a moral judgement. Perhaps their morals are flawed.
Otherwise........
Threats without backing them with force leads to impotancy against those dmaging their neighbours - Alan
Which leads to....
Weak democracy allows despotism -(That Alan bloke again) ;-)
Alan

alan,
your line...

Alan.
I take your point.
would add this, used flawed intelligence (no wmd's-no terrorist training camps)- Why not SYRIA- known to have both , why not N KOREA? WHY NOT IRAN?

the same lines used before the iraq invasion. dont get me wrong the invasion was one of the few good things done by blair and his spineless cronies. Lets be under no illusion it was done to mask the inadequacies of the current government. Saddam was the biggest WMD and was removed. It does not take the brains of a genius to work out, if you had WMD factories (mobile like he had) and six months to hide them you could.
I find it hard to believe people are still moaning about an illegal war. It's happened. The priority should now be allowing the people of iraq to run thier own country.
Part of that is the distruction of terrorism where ever and who ever it is.

hewittalan6 :-))

I prefer to think it is the "choice" of the majority under the influence of
information withheld, temptations of greed and stirred up hysteria of fear.
If "let the voters be fully aware" is a cornerstone of democracy, then there are not many democracies, if any, in the world.

IMO, everyone is entitled to, and should, made their own moral judgement.