Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

political party games and point scoring should be nothing to do with this tragedy, though unfortunately it has inevitably gone that way

there is no question that refurb costs have been sharply pruned, not only by rbk&c in this instance, but across 100's and probably 1000's of other similar projects whether hospitals, tower blocks, schools or whatever

while "rolls royce" is not expected, sprinkler systems (and properly operational fire doors) are real basics especially in hospitals and high density housing
failure to fit sprinklers even retroactively is unforgivable but apparently common practice

the cladding question is slightly different
if the cladding used was indeed still deemed acceptable in uk - it matters not what usa regs are or were - then it is hard to condemn the contractors for so doing

Come off it c, Jezza was in like Flynn and making political capital like the best of em.

Was this the reason khan got the elbow from the people when he visited the site?

as mentioned before, i cannot bear to watch

anyway, the point i was making was apolitical

MaxK

Thank you very much for that link at 7036 - and your comments.

I've sent it around.

Interesting commentary:

Soros says Britain nearing tipping point, may reverse Brexit

George Soros, Chairman of Soros Fund Management attends the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum (WEF) in Davos January 23, 2013. REUTERS/Pascal Lauener

George Soros, Chairman of Soros Fund Management attends the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum (WEF) in Davos January 23, 2013. REUTERS/Pascal Lauener
By Guy Faulconbridge | LONDON

George Soros, the billionaire who earned fame by betting against the pound in 1992, said Britain was approaching a tipping point that would see the economy slow to such an extent that Brexit might even be reversed.

Soros used Quantum Fund in 1992 to bet successfully that sterling was over-valued against the Deutsche Mark, forcing then-Prime Minister John Major to pull the pound out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM).

Soros, who was born in Hungary but made his way to London as Communists consolidated power in Budapest, said economic reality was starting to catch up with a United Kingdom that voted 52 to 48 percent to leave the European Union in a June 23 referendum.

"The moment of truth is fast approaching," Soros said in an article emailed to reporters.

"The fact is that Brexit is a lose-lose proposition, harmful both to Britain and the European Union. It cannot be undone, but people can change their minds."

Britain's $2.5 trillion (1.97 trillion pounds) economy has shown resilience since last year's referendum although sterling fell 25 cents against the dollar in the hours immediately after the shock vote.

But Britain went from being one of the fastest-growing economies of the Group of Seven leading economic nations in 2016 to the slowest in early 2017, as the fall in the value of the pound after the Brexit referendum pushed up inflation and hit consumer spending.

The combination of rising prices and slowing wage growth represents a challenge for the Bank of England and its top policymakers, three of whom voted last week to raise interest rates to head off the acceleration of inflation.

Soros said the Bank had underestimated the impact of inflation and was now catching up.

"Households will realise that their living standards are falling and they will have to adjust their spending habits," Soros said. "To make matters worse, they will also realize that they have become over-indebted and they will have to pay back their debts."

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Britain has less than two years to negotiate the terms of the divorce and the outlines of the future relationship before it is due to leave in late March 2019. Both sides need an agreement to keep trade flowing between the world's biggest trading bloc and the fifth-largest global economy.

Soros said that if Prime Minister Theresa May wanted to stay in power, she would have to change her approach and take account of young people who he said wanted to find well-paying jobs.

She should, Soros said, seek to keep Britain in the EU's single market as Britain tried to extract itself.

"The divorce process would take at least five years to complete, and during that time new elections would take place," Soros said. "If all went well, the two parties may want to remarry even before they have divorced."

(Editing by Hugh Lawson)

Oh, what does he know?

frequently not nearly as much as he likes to think or to spout from his soapbox

however, and as i have said for a very long time, no one has any idea how everything will eventually pan out

That turd Soros is talking his own book, only a few weeks ago he was saying the €urozone was in trouble.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/06/01/dysfunctional-eu-has-plunged-existential-crisis-george-soros/

Some people use any one available for their own demented arguments . no surprises there .

re - their own demented arguments

are you talking about - Freda - or - Soros -?

anyway they are both from the same background Communists East European, both refuges and the same old age.

soros was born in hungary in 1930, which was far from being either communist or east european and came to uk in 1947
by a narrow definition, yes a refugee but the other "accusations" are well off the mark

You can include yourself in the list if you feel happy - cynic

and then you can say ..... is talking about me

There is no "accusations" just truth 3 yes

Communists East European - Hungary - yes
refugee - yes
old age - 87 - yes

nope ..... you already know my family history so won't bother to repeat

hungary was not "gifted" to the russkies until 1949
though it fell under it's own communist gov't earlier in the century, it did not have great public support
for sure the period from about 1920 was very messy (and bloody)

middle european yes; eastern european no

NOPE to you

If Poland is considered as Eastern Europe, Hungary is just below on the same line

It's generally considered Eastern European. Anything east of Germany is.
Most will say : I've never heard anyone talk about "central" European, or is East or West

The United Nations Statistics Division considers Eastern Europe to consist of the following ten countries: Belarus, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Hungary, Moldova, Poland, Romania, Russia (a transcontinental country), Slovakia, Ukraine.


The 2007 Time Almanac defines Eastern Europe as the following 24 countries: Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Georgia, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Republic of Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Poland, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Ukraine

Listen to Eastern Europe ( Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic )
by MICHAEL BRENDAN DOUGHERTY June 19, 2017 4:00 AM

EU bureaucrats should hear the message loud and clear: Muslim migration waves are a pressing problem, and the public is fed up. The European Union announced this week that it would begin proceedings to punish Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic for their refusal to accept refugees and migrants under a 2015 scheme the E.U. commission created.

The mission’s aim was to relieve Greece and Italy of the burden from migrant waves arriving from the Middle East and Africa, largely facilitated by European rescues of migrants in the Mediterranean. The conflict between the EU and these three nations of the Visegrád Group is not just about the authority the EU can arrogate to itself when facing an emergency (one largely of its own making), but about the character of European government and society in the future. It is hard not to conclude that the dissenting countries are correct to dissent. Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia had voted against the 2015 agreement. Poland’s government had supported it then, but a subsequent election saw a new party come into power that rejected the scheme.

The Eastern European governments are right to reject the farcical 2015 scheme. First because it is based on so many lies. Western Europe’s policy on “refugees” has been dishonest from beginning to end. The vast majority of people arriving are not fleeing war in Syria or Iraq. They are coming from Chad, Afghanistan, and Eritrea, and they are looking for economic opportunity in Europe.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448749/sanctions-punishing-poland-eastern-europe-are-mistake

Can't argue about that. The migrants were encouraged by ships standing by to pick them up and take them to their destination. Including British but not Polish or Hungarian. Let the EU take "proceedings". The alternative is clear to see in the rest of the EU.

hungary currently has a pretty scary far-right gov't
don't know where poland sits in that respect


European Union announced this week that it would begin proceedings to punish ......
if that is indeed true and it may well be, the it shows how little brussels bureaucrats have listened or are even willing to hear from their members

==============

fred - not quite fair i know, but it is an indicator (rather than a true example) of exactly why i voted "out" - ie i saw it as the only way to get brussels' attention

I always found walking away from a discussion when I wanted to influence the outcome was the best way to deal with problems.

Showed "grown up responsible behaviour", or was it "that will show "em"" adolescent behaviour of those with poor arguments.

I always found walking away from a discussion when I wanted to influence the outcome was the best way to deal with problems.

Showed "grown up responsible behaviour", or was it "that will show "em"" adolescent behaviour of those with poor arguments?

that's a rubbish argument in this particular :-)