Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Dil,

I think the Brexiters, UKIP, BNP, right wing of the torrid party, and raving monster looney party could form a new party, which could be authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

Perhaps, call it the New English Fascist Party?

The name would seem representative.

Or perhaps,

The Littler England and Monmouthshire Party!

Fred

Very little point in the EU Negotiator meeting them.

I do like to read the very clear and concise views put my Jacob Rees-Mogg.

You might not like him because he is a tory, ex-Eton and also a bit of 'a toff' - but he does speak on things clearly, with excellent authority and knowledge, and so if you like that kind of thing, you actually might like him.

From the Express:

Corbyn's EU interference could WRECK Brexit deal... and save us BILLIONS - Jacob Rees-Mogg

EXCLUSIVE: Jeremy Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon’s visit to Brussels yesterday was pointless as they will have no influence over Brexit negotiations, Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg said.

By ALIX CULBERTSON
PUBLISHED: 04:11, Fri, Jul 14, 2017 | UPDATED: 12:07, Fri, Jul 14, 2017

The staunch Brexiteer said the Labour and SNP leaders are entitled to attempt to dip their oar into the European Union.

But suggestions they will have any influence over the final negotiations is nonsense, Mr Rees-Mogg insisted - and if they tempt Brussels into punishing the UK, then leaving the EU without a deal will benefit Britons.

Speaking exclusively to Express.co.uk, he said: “They’re entitled to, they’re opposition politicians and the job of the opposition is to oppose.

“But the negotiations will be done by the British Government, and although the result wasn’t as good as we hoped for, the Conservatives won the election.

“Mrs May is the Prime Minister, David Davis is the Brexit Secretary.

"They will be the ones doing the negotiations.

“It’s a perfectly reasonable thing for them to do but it won’t change the trend of the negotiations.”

Ms Sturgeon, the SNP leader and Scottish First Minister, was part of a remoaner mission to the Belgian capital today, joined by Mr Corbyn and Labour’s Welsh first minister Carwyn Jones.

The trio met with EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier - who previously stated he would not negotiate with Scotland behind Britain’s back.

Ms Sturgeon was expected to beg the Frenchman to help her prevent an “extreme Brexit outside the single market” during a 45-minute meeting. Independence “obsessed” Sturgeon was seen leaving after just 45 minutes, saying the meeting was "useful and constructive”.

She admitted she is going against everything Theresa May is saying and is concentrating on what is best for Scotland, not Britain as a whole.

Mr Corbyn said before the meeting he would tell the EU’s negotiator he is the prime minister in waiting and is “ready to take up the responsibility for Brexit negotiations” if Mrs May falls.

Asked whether Mr Corbyn’s meeting would prompt left-wing European parties in Brussels to put pressure on the negotiations, Mr Rees-Mogg, said: “Well, what do they seek to achieve?

“EU officials are also saying that no deal is better than a bad deal, they said this earlier this week.

“But they are in a worse position than we are on this issue, because if they get no deal we leave, we don’t have to pay the European Union any money, not at all, not a brass farthing.

“And that’s a very good, strong position to be in.

“With no deal, their budget is ruined and they don’t have our money and suddenly they’ve got to cut expenditure in some of the poorer countries, or Germany has to pay more.

“So, no deal doesn’t really suit them. So if visits from leading UK politicians make them think it would be better to just try a punishment deal for the UK, we go for no deal and then cut off their nose to spite their faces.

“We in the UK should not be frightened of no deal, but with no deal, we save a huge amount of money, at least £10billion a year, in net contributions.”

“But we’re also able to trade with the EU on the same basis we do with the rest of the world. 60 per cent of our trade is already done with the rest of the world on primarily WTO basis and so, suddenly our trading position is pretty good.

“And all the protection that is through the EU customs union, it is there to protect continental European businesses, not UK businesses so if we are out of that, that’s where the really exciting opportunity comes so we can have lower prices, particularly for goods, some services as well, particularly goods.”

What happened to the advantages Maggie sign up for?

But it looks to me that the tories are expecting negotiations to fail and looking around for somebody other than themselves to blame for the chaos and "disaster" of the "possible" deals and contracts at the end of the consultations.

If you were outside the EU of 27 countries, which would you prefer to deals with, the EU or the UK, which will be a single country?

Which is the more attractive, a possible deal with possible deal with 27 other on the same basis or dealing with the UK and having to negotiate different rules and regulation?

If possible, do you deal with your neighbour within the EU?

What are the costs of trading through the EU against outside the EU?

If exporting, what is the extra cost per unit of trading between local and distant?

I am not saying it can't be done, but the price seems high to me.

Ps, I would like to see Mogg being leader of a right wing rump of the tory party, with Cash as his deputy.

To me, he is a satirical pompous image of the tory's past.

Pompous a very good description of you Freda , still bluffing then .

Max,

I hope America steps in and saves our a === again.

I would love to see Donald riding bareback up The Mall to save us again.

Unless of course he is tied up in Pigalle.

Fat chance!

Fred.

If the yanks wade in, it will be to suit their own book..I personally wouldn't bet my ass on it.

As for big mistake number two, the germs were already fucked cos they couldn't cross the channel, the RAF, with the help of a few friends, not to mention the brit navy, knackered the much anticipated invasion: The much vaunted Luftwaffe was comprehensively defeated and that was that: Operation Sealion suffered a still birth.


The great satan had little to do with it at the start.

That is one interpretation of history.

Interesting!

8-)

What do we need Trump to save us from Fred and how do you suggest we do a deal with the EU ?

Easy to stand on the side lines spouting off like Corby , Sturgeon et al but I've not seen one decent suggestion/policy/proposal put forward by yourself or any other remoaner.

All doom and gloom mongers , should get out more and cheer up a bit.

Taken from Ii,

How can you say it won't happen - It already is !"
-----
This is false logic. Until the process is completed it hasn't happened. It's simply in effect - whereby the course can be altered. Or are you suggesting that you can't prevent a car crash in motion by simply putting your foot on the brakes?

I think you are very likely to be in for a shock. Not as great as last year's ridiculousness granted, but a shock nonetheless. And let us have none of this 'the people have spoken' nonsense. The very essence of democracy is that decisions taken can be examined and revisited and decision takers are held to account -- particularly when circumstances change or new information comes to light. If they're not, why bother with a general election every few years? We may as well vote in a dictator and be done with it.

Undoubtedly there will be many who knew exactly what they were voting for last year. There will also be many who cast a vote not fully aware of the entire ramifications of it. Even now, one year on, new issues and circumstances are coming to light almost daily. If you voted leave under some spurious notion of 'taking back control' promulgated by the likes of the execrable Dacre then imo you were misinformed and foolish to do so. For instance, how can we 'take back control' of our borders without a hard border that there is no appetite for in Ireland? And if there isn't one, there's nothing to stop an EU citizen flying into Dublin, driving into the north and then jumping on a ferry to England is there? And our government wouldn't have a clue.

The fact is, there was always far to much detail that was ignored by the abguity of simply remain or leave. A binary in out vote wasn't ever going to reflect everyone's wants and needs. The sooner everyone wakes up to the fact that 40 years of integration simply cannot be successfully undone in 20 months -- particularly so by a government riven by indecision, infighting and inescapably at odds with itself the better.

We need another referendum. And while the appetite for yet more ridiculous posturing electioneering is understandably lacking, there simply isn't any other viable way of addressing this clusterfuck we currently find ourselves mired in.

Cameron has much to answer for.

per ardua ad astra"

fred - even you surely cannot deny that you would be more than happy if the referendum (or any other vote) went the way that you wanted it
you may not like the democratic system we have in uk, but that's hard cheese
that system says that you get what the majority votes for, whether it's brexit or corbyn or teresa may

That's undemocratic (according to Fred think)

And the public can change their mind at each election.

Also, if you make a mistake and take the wrong route I hope you are allowed to stop and reverse.

Especially if you map and goals are wrong!

--=-=-=-=

The majority of Brexiters were voting against "something" not for "something".

Show the public the results of negotiations and the probable consequences and let them vote again, rather than being stuck with rabble rousing, emotional rants with unknown consequences which provoke their previous mistakes.


Let them sleep on it.

So when we eventually decide it was not a good idea to leave...where will you muppets be relocating to?

Go on Fred, tell us the positives of staying.

I personally was voting out to be free of the top down mentality that went for Brussels, and all it entails (a lot that they don't speak about).

Go on Fred, here's you chance, give us the full monty on why we should stay. (a bit of reality wont go amiss)

Here's a suggestion boys, what about here? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-40631452/the-seoul-train-that-goes-to-the-border-and-back

Just a small problem of getting in of course but hay ho!

This could be a job for that British Bulldog.. yes I give you that Master Negotiator the one and only...?

From post 103

''Also, if you make a mistake and take the wrong route I hope you are allowed to stop and reverse''.

Fred advocating a U turn whereas in the past he has been vociferous in his condemnation of them. I guess this one would suit so it's ok. Typical Labour hypocrite