Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

What happened to the advantages Maggie sign up for?

But it looks to me that the tories are expecting negotiations to fail and looking around for somebody other than themselves to blame for the chaos and "disaster" of the "possible" deals and contracts at the end of the consultations.

If you were outside the EU of 27 countries, which would you prefer to deals with, the EU or the UK, which will be a single country?

Which is the more attractive, a possible deal with possible deal with 27 other on the same basis or dealing with the UK and having to negotiate different rules and regulation?

If possible, do you deal with your neighbour within the EU?

What are the costs of trading through the EU against outside the EU?

If exporting, what is the extra cost per unit of trading between local and distant?

I am not saying it can't be done, but the price seems high to me.

Ps, I would like to see Mogg being leader of a right wing rump of the tory party, with Cash as his deputy.

To me, he is a satirical pompous image of the tory's past.

Pompous a very good description of you Freda , still bluffing then .

Max,

I hope America steps in and saves our a === again.

I would love to see Donald riding bareback up The Mall to save us again.

Unless of course he is tied up in Pigalle.

Fat chance!

Fred.

If the yanks wade in, it will be to suit their own book..I personally wouldn't bet my ass on it.

As for big mistake number two, the germs were already fucked cos they couldn't cross the channel, the RAF, with the help of a few friends, not to mention the brit navy, knackered the much anticipated invasion: The much vaunted Luftwaffe was comprehensively defeated and that was that: Operation Sealion suffered a still birth.


The great satan had little to do with it at the start.

That is one interpretation of history.

Interesting!

8-)

What do we need Trump to save us from Fred and how do you suggest we do a deal with the EU ?

Easy to stand on the side lines spouting off like Corby , Sturgeon et al but I've not seen one decent suggestion/policy/proposal put forward by yourself or any other remoaner.

All doom and gloom mongers , should get out more and cheer up a bit.

Taken from Ii,

How can you say it won't happen - It already is !"
-----
This is false logic. Until the process is completed it hasn't happened. It's simply in effect - whereby the course can be altered. Or are you suggesting that you can't prevent a car crash in motion by simply putting your foot on the brakes?

I think you are very likely to be in for a shock. Not as great as last year's ridiculousness granted, but a shock nonetheless. And let us have none of this 'the people have spoken' nonsense. The very essence of democracy is that decisions taken can be examined and revisited and decision takers are held to account -- particularly when circumstances change or new information comes to light. If they're not, why bother with a general election every few years? We may as well vote in a dictator and be done with it.

Undoubtedly there will be many who knew exactly what they were voting for last year. There will also be many who cast a vote not fully aware of the entire ramifications of it. Even now, one year on, new issues and circumstances are coming to light almost daily. If you voted leave under some spurious notion of 'taking back control' promulgated by the likes of the execrable Dacre then imo you were misinformed and foolish to do so. For instance, how can we 'take back control' of our borders without a hard border that there is no appetite for in Ireland? And if there isn't one, there's nothing to stop an EU citizen flying into Dublin, driving into the north and then jumping on a ferry to England is there? And our government wouldn't have a clue.

The fact is, there was always far to much detail that was ignored by the abguity of simply remain or leave. A binary in out vote wasn't ever going to reflect everyone's wants and needs. The sooner everyone wakes up to the fact that 40 years of integration simply cannot be successfully undone in 20 months -- particularly so by a government riven by indecision, infighting and inescapably at odds with itself the better.

We need another referendum. And while the appetite for yet more ridiculous posturing electioneering is understandably lacking, there simply isn't any other viable way of addressing this clusterfuck we currently find ourselves mired in.

Cameron has much to answer for.

per ardua ad astra"

fred - even you surely cannot deny that you would be more than happy if the referendum (or any other vote) went the way that you wanted it
you may not like the democratic system we have in uk, but that's hard cheese
that system says that you get what the majority votes for, whether it's brexit or corbyn or teresa may

That's undemocratic (according to Fred think)

And the public can change their mind at each election.

Also, if you make a mistake and take the wrong route I hope you are allowed to stop and reverse.

Especially if you map and goals are wrong!

--=-=-=-=

The majority of Brexiters were voting against "something" not for "something".

Show the public the results of negotiations and the probable consequences and let them vote again, rather than being stuck with rabble rousing, emotional rants with unknown consequences which provoke their previous mistakes.


Let them sleep on it.

So when we eventually decide it was not a good idea to leave...where will you muppets be relocating to?

Go on Fred, tell us the positives of staying.

I personally was voting out to be free of the top down mentality that went for Brussels, and all it entails (a lot that they don't speak about).

Go on Fred, here's you chance, give us the full monty on why we should stay. (a bit of reality wont go amiss)

Here's a suggestion boys, what about here? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-40631452/the-seoul-train-that-goes-to-the-border-and-back

Just a small problem of getting in of course but hay ho!

This could be a job for that British Bulldog.. yes I give you that Master Negotiator the one and only...?

From post 103

''Also, if you make a mistake and take the wrong route I hope you are allowed to stop and reverse''.

Fred advocating a U turn whereas in the past he has been vociferous in his condemnation of them. I guess this one would suit so it's ok. Typical Labour hypocrite

I see funny farm Fred and silly Stan still here spouting their rubbish and bile.

George.

Just observant of strong stable leadership and government and what it means to some.

Never, found difficulty in accepting when I have made mistakes and usually try to correct the resulting situation and not repeat them.

Often annoying, but useful lessons.


Recognise or realise that I seem to have survived reasonably well doing so.

Also, believed in trial and error, and believe it is useful sometimes, hopefully recognising the errors earlier enough to modify decisions and prevent serious consequences.

-=-=-

But the problem is that many of tory right winged elitist and rabble followers in government at the present time think they can walk on water and are hoping for miracles to save their own skins.

Dumbo,

You are seeing things again.

Change your diet.