Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

The whole thing is a mess...roll on the "informed" Referendum.

Yet another new kipper leader http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41447568

A man that has worn an army and police uniform. That won't go down at all well in the Islington Sotsialisticheskaya Respublika.

The whole thing is a mess...roll on the "informed" Referendum.

Informed ... and what might that be Stan?

At last a torrid solution for the Brexiters.

Trouble at t'Spanish mill.......

What Happens If Catalonia Leaves Spain? The Independence Referendum Could Cause Massive Political Upheaval

Dan Kitwood/Getty Images News/Getty Images
ByMARIE SOLIS
Saturday evening (3 hours ago)

Political tensions have once again come to a head on the Iberian Peninsula. On Sunday, Catalonia will hold a referendum for independence from Spain in the latest of several attempts to secede from the country.

Most Catalans are feeling optimistic about this year's outcome: The majority of residents who participate in the vote are expected to vote yes. This prospect is a huge source of excitement for Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont who, in January, promised, "If 50 percent plus one vote 'yes', we will declare independence without hesitation."

But Catalonia's path to independence is far more complicated than a simple majority vote — especially since, in the eyes of the Spanish government, the referendum means very little. That's because, according to Spanish law, the referendum itself is illegal.

"I say this both calmly and firmly: There will be no referendum, it won't happen," Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who has vehemently condemned the vote, recently said.

Indeed, the Spanish government is doing everything in its power to prevent the illicit referendum from taking place at all. CNN reported that a Spanish court has ordered Google to remove an app from its store which helps referendum voters find their designated polling site. According to The Guardian, the federal government has plans to send police officers to many of those polling sites across the region in attempts to thwart the vote. That means most, if not all, of the people who show up to the referendum will likely be ardent supporters of Catalan secession, willing to flout Spanish law to cast their vote for independence.

Will their reality look any different come Monday? According to some constitutional experts, it's unlikely.

"If the Catalan government does not negotiate the calling of a referendum with the state, it is not legally possible, because this power is held by the central state," Javier Garcia Roca, a constitutional law professor in Madrid, told the BBC earlier this year.

However, the Catalan government has every intention of operating under the belief that a majority vote for independence is legitimate, and proceeding as such. Joan Maria Piqué, the Catalan government's director of international communications, has said that it will then be up to the federal government to acknowledge the vote or not.

"If we have 50 percent turnout and a majority in favor of independence, this will be legitimate," Piqué said in January. "Then Madrid will have to ask itself if it is going to impose its laws by force, if the Catalan people choose their future peacefully and democratically."

Madrid, though, has made its stance relatively clear. Rajoy has already refused to meet with Puigdemont, saying that to do so would be to meet with someone who flouts the constitution. And Puigdemont, who has made Catalan independence his singular goal in office, has expressed an unwillingness to make any compromises.

Considering the stalemate, Spain will likely see much more political upheaval and unrest following the referendum, with The Washington Post predicting "major protests and months of messiness."

The start of it could very well be on Monday, when supporters of Catalan independence are slated to march in the streets for the region's national holiday. Though, historically, movements for independence have been messy, to say the least Puigdemont has insisted Catalonia's fight will rely on civil disobedience.

"On Monday, we will overwhelm them peacefully and democratically, as always," he said in an address to some of these supporters.

Still, even Puigdemont is measured in his own expectations for what will happen after the referendum. “There is no button that you push and the next day you become independent,” he said.

Standoff Between Catalonia And Spain Heats Up Ahead Of Independence Vote

JACOB BOJESSON
Foreign Correspondent
5:30 PM 09/30/2017

More than 160 schools have been occupied around Catalonia as separatists and the Spanish government are in a standoff ahead of a planned referendum Sunday.

Tens of thousands of people are expected to attempt to vote in schools around the region. Police inspected 1,300 out of the 2,315 designated polling station Saturday, with 163 being occupied by separatists. The remaining facilities have been sealed off by police.

The referendum has been deemed unconstitutional by courts, but Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont affirms that the vote will go ahead as planned.

“Everything is prepared at the more than 2,000 voting points so they have ballot boxes and voting slips, and have everything people need to express their opinion,” Puigdemont told Reuters.

Meanwhile, the Spanish government insists “there will be no referendum” and that anyone trying to organize it will face criminal charges, government spokesman Inigo Mendez de Vigo said Friday.

The standoff has so far been peaceful, and Puigdemont has called on Catalans to remain calm and not use violence.

“I don’t believe there will be anyone who will use violence or who will want to provoke violence that will tarnish the irreproachable image of the Catalan independence movement as pacifist,” Puigdemont said.

Catalonia has pushed for a legitimate referendum for years. An 80 percent majority backed independence in a symbolic referendum in 2014, which the federal government ruled unconstitutional. Three former officials, including the former Catalan President Artur Mas, were barred from holding public office as a result.

Spain has threatened to suspend hundreds of mayors for backing Sunday’s referendum. Polls suggest that a majority of people want to remain part of Spain while also supporting the vote to settle the issue.

I think we should offer them a free trade deal first thing in the morning just to stir the shit a bit :-)

Dil,

You are OK.

Your honest pals are in the driving seats.

Which way they are are going is a different matter!

Laughable if it wasn't so serious.

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none of you ranting twits actually knows what is going on behind the closed doors
it must be very wearing having such a permanent erection over this (very important) issue over which we actually have no control

just relax and wait

Manuel.

Stop wetting yourself.

Martini - 29 Sep 2017 20:57 - 7651 of 7658

Informed ... and what might that be Stan?

Don't ask silly questions Martini.

Stan

Humour me and explain please.

Martini,

Opposite to what the tory confusion party is offering.

The only thing the Cons seem interested in at the present time is saving their own a____.


Not unusual and should relabel itself as the party of self-interest.

My word standing up for Corbyn is obscene , the man who lied through his socks and made up promises trying to get elected . Anyway where's your EU heroes responding to the violence in Spain Freda , I thought it was a democratic country Spain , but not a recognised word in the EU wilderness .

So what does the opposite look like Fred. I am keen to learn.

Albania.

I would say Venezuela, below is an extract from a letter to the American media:-

Venezuela has descended into complete and utter chaos as a result of a brutal, socialist government whose citizens are starving under its tightening grip every day.

Make no mistake, this is a humanitarian disaster and socialist policies are to blame. Venezuela's experiment in Marxism began in 1999. With each passing year, what was once one of the most prosperous countries in Latin America became poorer and poorer. What was once a free country, became repressive. Those who tried to reform the failing policies of the ruling United Socialist Party of Venezuela were brutally repressed, imprisoned and even murdered.

Venezuela's current President Nicolás Maduro and his predecessor, Hugo Chávez follow a long list of brutal dictators including Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Fidel Castro who are responsible for more than 100 million deaths. Venezuela is now closer to communism than ever. Communism has been tried in more than 40 countries, and each time results in the worst and widest scale human rights abuses known to man.

We, the undersigned, will not tolerate the obfuscating or whitewashing of the crimes of the socialist regime in Venezuela and the actions of their communist ally, Castro's Cuba which now reportedly has thousands of military advisors participating in the violent treatment and murder of unarmed protestors.

Vicky,

I thought you object to EU interference in the legislation of individual states.


But Mariano Rajoy seems as inept as Theresa Maybe and fellow cohorts.

Is he a relation of yours?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Martini.


You are a clever chap, spend a little time and read some sensible papers.


Try listening to http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh


Power, the people and the Party

Interesting discussion.

Though it may be a bit adult for you.