Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Catalan referendum shame for EU

Much clear can not be in Spain, though a democrazy is still run by the Facist, from Politics to Sport, another note is PM (M. Rajoy ) is from Galicia the same place as Franco.

Catalan independence referendum: Massive majority votes 'Yes' 90% , regional government says

Catalonia is a wealthy region within Spain with its own language and culture. Should the vote take place, a “yes” vote is likely, given that most of the 40 percent of Catalans who polls show support independence are expected to cast ballots while most of those against it are not.

Hundreds gathered in the centre of Spanish capital Madrid national Spanish flags. They chanted ”Spanish unity” and “Don’t fool us – Catalonia is Spain”. Many balconies in the capital are draped with the red and yellow Spanish flag.

Some sang the Spanish fascist anthem ‘Facing the Sun’, a hymn often played during the dictatorship of Francisco Franco.


The pigs are hungry, throw Rajoy to the "stay"

Fred
Yes i listened to that as i do with Radio 4 most of the day. I also take The Mail, The Sunday Times. The Guardian, The Observer and various other hard copy publications.

What i was interested in was your vision and Stan's on what was meant by an Informed Brexit.

O and by the way why do you need to attempt to insult me by the " Though it may be a bit adult for you" comment?

I was hoping you might articulate it yourselves rather than using others words or cartoons.

As I have said humour me please.

He's belittling you Martini , he sees himself far superior to most .

With all due respect to them, the citizens of a particular area of just one part of Spain, cannot just tell the rest of the citizens of Spain to 'get stuffed' without doing a proper deal with all the rest of those Spanish citizens.

In other words a FULL country vote was required. Thus this 'partial, limited only to the citizens of Catalonia, referendum' was utterly flawed and its result would be counted for nothing.

This was not the way to go about things and no wonder the whole Catalonia referendum thing' has been a confusing disaster.

Not withstanding all of that, the Spanish Government must be crazy to use such 'fascist tactics' to stop the referendum from happening and squash what they deemed to be a 'criminal revolt'.

And where are the EU with some proper comment on things?

In the USA, it would seem to me, that it is soon going to be much more difficult to buy, what is going to become a relatively cheap item.

Namely......a 'fully automatic assault rifle'.

This being an item of gun hardware, that any, say white male 64 yr old, who just happens to feel extremely pissed-off with everything and everybody, can tool himself up with and then go out and use to just let loose and kill around 50 people and maybe put around 400 others in hospital.

Cornwall is my favourite to have independence referendum here.

Martini,

With your intellect and newspaper coverage, you could be able enough to view necessary information and other opinions other than your own, or mine.

The next step is to be prepared to think, open your mind and consider appropriately.

Questions are easy to ask but to give adequately argued answers would take more of my time and effort than I think I wish to.

But thank you for the interest shown, I think humouring yourself would be appropriate.

Exec.

To me, The Basque Country and Catalonia wishing to escape the "tyranny" of Greater Spain seems a little like "Little England" wishing to escape from the "tyranny" of the EU.

But at the same time wishing and depending on the mutual virtues of trade, wealth, laws, communications and security, etc, on one another.

The "violent suppression" and the anti-hype before the vote of what might have been seen as a peaceful demonstration seems to me to be provocative and crazy.

ExecLine

re - In other words a FULL country vote was required. ( post 7674 )
re - has been a confusing disaster.

are you living in cuckooland? or maybe you are not up to date of what was going on

how on earth do you think we voted to get OUT of EU, just UK, not all EUROPE and the same in SCOTLAND.

Were you half sleep when posting, or you are just out of line ?


Fred1new

for once I have to be on you side as it seems you know the Spanish history, not like others
------------
http://www.wsj.com/video/catalonia-independence-referendum-what-you-need-to-know/F812FC12-C32A-49DE-BB89-BE6E69E7C567.html

So, if the hordes of Catalans who don't want independence didn't even bother to turn out and vote in the 'illegal' referendum, then the 90% of the 40% who did turn out to vote for independence suggests that only around 36% of Catalans do actually want independence.

Hardly a ringing endorsement by my maths....

Perhaps, some of the hordes who didn't turn out to vote were frightened of being beaten up by "anti-riot" police, which seemed from the "news" prepared for a violent suppression of the voting process.

Guardia Civil and El Cuerpo Nacional de Policia are not known for their gentleness and were stationed at the ready.

Also, fear, as is complacency, is unlikely to be the sole prerogative of the "separatists" or "remainers".

But I would suggest that of the non-voting Catalans a higher % were at the time of the vote remainers, but that has been changed by the action of the police, which may have been what the "leavers" wanted.

Whether one large group of individuals has the right to subjugate another large group
of individuals for their own "gain" and not the gain of the "whole" is debatable.

So what was the Spanish Government so worried about? If the vote had been open, and a no, end of story. Sending in riot police from outside of Catalonia to close down polling stations has only made matters worse.

The Fly in the ointment may be this:

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/05/catalonia-is-critical-contributor-to-spains-economy.html


Catalonia is critical contributor to Spain's economy
Everett Rosenfeld | @Ev_Rosenfeld
Published 1:37 PM ET Mon, 5 Oct 2015 Updated 11:51 AM ET Tue, 6 Oct 2015
CNBC.com
Investors honed in on Scotland last year on fears that a possible exit from the United Kingdom could disrupt the global economy. Those same eyes turned more recently to Spain after a vote in Catalonia gave separatist parties a majority of regional parliamentary seats.

Catalan pro-indepence supporters raise their arms and wave flags following the closing of polling stations during Catalan regional election on September 27, 2015 in Barcelona.
Gerard Julien | AFP | Getty Images
Catalan pro-indepence supporters raise their arms and wave flags following the closing of polling stations during Catalan regional election on September 27, 2015 in Barcelona.
Many in the northeastern region of Spain have sought political independence, but the Sept. 27 vote appears to have halted the movement temporarily: The popular vote — and therefore, the political "mandate" — for the secessionist parties came in at only about 48 percent, and the national government in Madrid is resolutely opposed to separation. Southern European bond yields hit five-month lows on Monday as investors have taken the recent national elections in Portugal and Spain as signals of growing stability in the region.

Still, pro-independence sentiment remains strong in Catalonia, which has its own language and still remembers brutal oppression under former Spanish dictator Francisco Franco. And if Catalonia were to declare independence, it would take a major portion of Spain's economic power with it.

In a research note following the vote, JPMorgan predicted that the "conflict between Catalonia and the central government will not lose intensity. ... In our view, a material offer to reframe the role of Catalonia within the national state ... is needed to soften the rising radicalism in the pro-secession camp and restore the premises for a more constructive approach."

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Catalonia's 2013 regional product was 203.62 billion euros ($228 billion), according to the Public Diplomacy Council of Catalonia — about 20 percent of Spain's 2013 GDP of $1.04 trillion euros ($1.17 trillion).
Scotland, meanwhile, accounted for less than 8 percent of the U.K.'s total 2013 GDP, according to the European Commission. Scotland had slightly more than 8 percent of the U.K. population in 2012.

Despite only accounting for about 16 percent of the Spanish population, Catalonia represents about 25 percent of all Spanish exports, and it accounted for 23 percent of all Spanish industry, according to the regional government. The economy in Catalonia is relatively diversified, although about half of employment comes from manufacturing or market-related production services jobs, according to figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

If Catalonia goes, watch the debt

The effect of a Catalonian exit on Spain varies largely by how much debt it would take with it, said Xavier Sala-i-Martin, the Catalonian-born chief economic adviser for the World Economic Forum's Center for Global Competitiveness and Performance.

If Madrid were to bargain for an independent Catalonia to take 19 percent of its debt — the same proportion the region had been contributing to GDP — then the effect would largely be a wash for Spain's macroeconomic position. Catalonia has not historically grown so much faster than other parts of the country that its exit would damage future expectations of economic expansion, Sala-i-Martin said.


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But if the debt reallocation were to match the 16 percent population figure, or the 11 percent current national expenditure on the region, then Spain's debt-to-GDP ratio could approach unsustainability. It's just under 100 percent now, and some already question how Madrid will be able to meet its payments if rates were to rise (an expected global outcome if the Federal Reserve moves to tighten in the U.S.).
Even worse for Spain would be if the national government works to actively oppose a Catalonia that declares independence and therefore refuses to reach a debt transfer agreement, Sala-i-Martin said. If that were the case, then its debt-to-GDP ration would balloon to something approaching 125 percent, he said.

"With the richest region gone and with almost unsustainable debt, then Spain is in big trouble," the economist said.

You disappoint me Fred. I was so willing to bend the knee to your intellect.

secession will not happen for a very long time, but the grotesque heavy-handed police intervention, as instructed by the gov't, was unbelievably stupid and unwarranted

The hordes who didn't vote, weren't 'frightened' in the slightest. They simply don't have the appetite for independence, and I'd suggest that they're bored with it all. Their actions are reminiscent of those twats in the UK Labour party who seem to think that it's OK to lie through the skin of their teeth, and throw their toys out of the pram when things don't go quite to plan. Vis-a-vis the Labour activist scum who think it's acceptable to protest with violence outside the Tory conference - they need to get a life.

Support for Catalonia independence peaked at 49% around 4 years ago (during a prior 'illegal' referendum), and has been on the wane ever since. My 36% figure may give or take a couple of percent, but it's a reasonably accurate reflection nonetheless. Catalonia may have the highest regional Spanish GDP, but that's only because they're heavily subsidised by central government. Other than that, they import regionally far more than they export, and unemployment runs at 22%. This is Club Med, after all said and done, and the real money is made in Madrid and invested elsewhere.

Seriously, they're fcuked, and they need to wake up and smell the coffee. Notwithstanding, they're nice people, they're proud of their heritage, and it's a very nice place to go (aside from the 'tourists go home garbage'). However, their illegal referendum really is a non-event, which will soon be forgotten about for a few more years.

Martini,

Happy to disappoint you!

But it is nice to have company in my disappointment of myself.


8-)

edited byMoneyAM

Mental RSI,

I asked before, are you an illegal immigrant? Because, aside from your c+p's, you sure as hell don't talk English.

Hils , less than 50% of those eligible to vote in Wales voted for a Welsh Assembley.

The vote for Brexit was by less than 50% of those elegible to vote.