Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Victim,

For sure, Corbyn engaged excellently. He knew what to say to the students to get their vote, his election team mastered social media which the Tories didn't, and he got straight down to Grenfell Tower for a photo opportunity.

Fred,

Maybe that's a different type of Liberal. :o)

Hilary you on happy pills .

Fred, Labour voters are more likely to get Marxism as defined above, not socialism as described by you

Yes, Corby knew what to promise to the snowflakes...free stuff, lots of, and then promptly renaged.

25,

Marxism is used as just a "cheep" jibe by limited con artists and just for the birds!

You have to remember that the world, has moved on perhaps leaving you behind, and many in politics are not stuck with the mantra of capitalism to cover over policies of narrow self-interest, which seems attractive to some of the tory party adherents.

Can I hear chants of "bring back the workhouses" or was that "bring back" the poorhouses?

Fred,

It's well known that Corbyn admires the political scene of Venezuela and would like the UK to adopt the same, with that in mind what is your take on the following letter written by CEO's of of Venezuelan companies to the US media.


Venezuela has descended into complete and utter chaos as a result of a brutal, socialist government whose citizens are starving under its tightening grip every day.

Make no mistake, this is a humanitarian disaster and socialist policies are to blame. Venezuela's experiment in Marxism began in 1999. With each passing year, what was once one of the most prosperous countries in Latin America became poorer and poorer. What was once a free country, became repressive. Those who tried to reform the failing policies of the ruling United Socialist Party of Venezuela were brutally repressed, imprisoned and even murdered.

Venezuela's current President Nicolás Maduro and his predecessor, Hugo Chávez follow a long list of brutal dictators including Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Fidel Castro who are responsible for more than 100 million deaths. Venezuela is now closer to communism than ever. Communism has been tried in more than 40 countries, and each time results in the worst and widest scale human rights abuses known to man.

We, the undersigned, will not tolerate the obfuscating or whitewashing of the crimes of the socialist regime in Venezuela and the actions of their communist ally, Castro's Cuba which now reportedly has thousands of military advisors participating in the violent treatment and murder of unarmed protestors.

I can see you splashing your " Obsession " all over your body still Freda , you said above , " you have to remember the World has moved on " but maybe you ain't yet .

25,

I know little of Venezuela, but suggest you go back to the periods of Perez regime and then Chavez also the reasons for its economic collapse.

Also. compare oil industry to service industry in this country and the effects of the latter's likely diminution if Brexit goes through. Also, have a look at the social conditions of the majority of Venezuelans during and before the Perez and Chavez.

Also, reflect on the increasing number of homeless and increase in numbers utilising food banks as the result of 6 and 1/2 years of tory mismanagement of the UK's economy.

See the T Mau is throwing cake to the mob or is casting pearls before swine similar to that of MacMillan.

-=--=--==

But it is good to be able to go back and kneel before your coffin icon.

-=-=-=-=-=

PS.

A number of my family fled from said communist regimes and some others were imprisoned under communist regimes. OTher members would have been shot at the borders if they had tried to return to their home countries."

Also, I spent time in a country under a "communist" regime and witnessed first hand its organising and processings. Also, brief interrogation and surveillance techniques.

Again I witnessed naive optimism similar to what I see you, many tories and labour party followers express.

Fred , why keep saying 'if Brexit goes through' ?

It's happening , don't you read or watch the news ?

The denial stage doesn't normally last this long but you'll get over it one day.

Have a look at the "Final Contract" when or if it arrives.

Oh dear , still using the if word Fred.

Probably won't be a final contract Fred , just end up walking away unless Barnier gets real.

PS.

Also, try and get honest figures to the cost of the negotiations and the likely costs of implementing the new "arrangements".

Also, have a regard to "international political influence" which will be lost. Although who needs the influence of the laughing stock of Europe who can't keep their promises.

(Unless they are buying arms to prop up their own dictatorships.)

One of the things I am not clear on is - say we do as a nation want to change our minds (not my preferred choice) how does that work? Do we just forget we triggered Article 50 and go on as before or do we have to reapply to be a member again and I wonder what terms we would be offered eg - all new members must enter the Euro.

... but we're leaving whatever.

Dear Freda , you are unfathomable and seem to live in some sort of idealistic World in your mind , you expect others to perform to a standard but it seems obvious that you can't accept change more than anyone here , it doesn't register does it .

The whole thing is a mess...roll on the "informed" Referendum.

Didn't anyone inform you about the last one Stan ?

It was definitely on the news and in the newspapers too I think.

Martini,

Up to the time of agreeing on the "exit" and somebody signing the agreement then we would still have to abide by what has already been signed up to.

But imagine the costs of the negotiations which will/would go on whichever happens.

But I think after negotiations have "finished" if that is possible, then what will be contracted to, should be presented and explained to the public and they "should" hold have either or both, a clear referendum and if necessary a General election.

I think that the UK has a parliamentary democracy and that should be the ruling body respecting the views of the general public.

Fred I understand all that but it was not what I was asking clarification on.