Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Mr Russell is hardly the person to give an opinion on Brexit as he opposes it don't you think . but that's the sort of thing you do Freda isn't it , Obsession .

Sorry Fred still doesn't answer my query.
Let me ask it again.

We get to the stage where we have no deal or we have some sort of deal on the table. We go to the people and have another referendum. The British people now say "we want to stay in". How do we do that? Pretend we did not trigger article 50 or do we have to reapply to rejoin on whatever terms the EU is willing to offer?

Since one of the biggest reasons on voting out by far, was the fact that the EU is not a democratic organisation. If there were a big change to that and which caused it to suddenly become democratic, perhaps there might not be a need to leave?

Such a major change to the EU would surely force our senior politicians to go back to the people for a fresh referendum?

So we have 'no deal' (1), an 'unsatisfactory deal' (2) and a 'fundamental change to the EU' (3) all being possible reasons for a change of mind about leaving.

The senior politicians would be the ones who determine what to do about these things. I can't really see (1) and (2) requiring a fresh referendum but I could see (3) requiring one.

But that doesn't answer the question of 'how do we go about changing our mind?'

Such a thing, being the opposite to what the referendum gave our permission for, would surely first require a fresh referendum and so just has to start with a recommendation move for that by our senior politicians.

Then eventually, if we voted a change of mind to stay in, we would have to go 'cap in hand' back to Brussels.

Maybe not! We would have such a weak hand it would not be playable!

I would be still for leaving and I think now, so would be our senior politicians.

Martini,

Try this

"Article 50


1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49."

It may be nonsense to you but seems sensible to me.

-=-=---=-=

Get your mum to explain it to you.

PS,


To help you even more.


So when does the UK actually leave?

The time-frame allowed in Article 50 is two years - and this can only be extended by unanimous agreement from all EU countries.
If no agreement is reached in two years, and no extension is agreed, the UK automatically leaves the EU and all existing agreements - including access to the single market - would cease to apply to the UK. If that happens, Brexit Day would be Friday, 29 March 2019.

Great can't wait ,roll on leaving day .

Thank you posting extracts from the Lisbon agreement, which I was aware of, but again you fail to understand what I am asking.

Everything you are posting is either the effects of Brexit or the process by which it is achieved.

What is not covered by Lisbon, is what happens if a member state changes its mind during the exit process and wants to stay. I must admit this is not surprising, as when they were drafting the Lisbon agreement they did not cover this eventuality. What Nation State would be that stupid? But that is exactly what the remoaners are wanting us to do.

So, there is no process to cover us selecting reverse gear other than applying again to join under article 49.

Maybe it will become clear when we have an "informed" second referendum.

We have not had an "informed first" referendum yet, that was and is my point.

I did understand that Stan but you failed to answer my question at the time what an informed second referendum would look like, which is what I am now trying to tease out. Do keep up.

An informed referendum doesn't look like anything, its just informed.. have you gone senile?

Try thinking!

It would be status quo.

But there would also be a review of relationships with the UK.

Best of luck to those who will negotiate for the UK.

sigh

The reason why Brexit looks a mess is that the EU is trying very hard to make it that way. They are playing for time in the hope of a change of government or leader. Their strategy seems to be to wear us down and give the impression that our government is doing a bad job in the discussions.

It's not my place to put words into another poster's mouth, but it's my guess that Martini is asking what part of the EU constitution allows for Article 50 to be revoked once it's been triggered.

Personally, I don't think there is anything, meaning that Brexit probably has to happen in March 2019 regardless, and that the only way back into the EU would be via a new application to join after that date.

So, any suggestion of an 'informed' (or any other type of referendum) is mere gobbledegook. In any event, and if it were even possible, revoking Article 50 would strengthen the EU's hand, and weaken the UK's. Game theory says that revoking Article 50 should never even be an option.

Regardless, with a good EU trade deal, and new trade deals elsewhere, the UK should come out of the game marginally ahead, and the EU should come out a fair way behind. The most important thing, however, is that the transition period is used to sign off the new trade deals.

By the way, Fred, it's been 29 degrees here today, which meant an afternoon on my favourite plage. Was that you I saw holding up the 'Zone Naturiste' sign? :o)

Yes Hilary. Thanks I thought I had suddenly started talking in Klingon.

There is a way in that the rest of the EU cold add an article covering this situation but it would need all the other countries to agree and I suspect it would come with lots of penalties for the initial presumption on our part.

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
'Relax' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'

No, I was sitting on a mountaintop near Dauphin with binoculars.

You looked good.

When I left it was about 30+.

Actually, I like it around that temperature and often played tennis when l younger in it.

I like the area where you are in and stayed in Sete in a beautiful old hotel on the "canal" ? The Grand Hotel.

The hotel seemed to be an image of the France in the 30s.

-=-=-=-

But try and keep your eyes off those bulging biceps, you don't know who they held last.'

A beautiful area from Port Barcarès to the Spanish border and also round the coast deeper into Spain.

Happy memories.

I am probably too old to travel that route again.

The german motor manufacturers are a huffin and a puffin:

This graph shows why:






They're getting the wind up :-)


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/german-firms-told-prepare-hard-brexit-heavy-economic-losses

Looks like we are a €uropean dumping ground.