Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Exec,


1.The EU isn't democratic organisation.

2. We surely ought to be able to put a limit on the number of immigrants allowed to come into our country. The EU told us we couldn't.


Do you consider the UK to be a perfect democracy?

Shorthand.

(The majority of the press and media controlled by the right wing, money is allowed to buy power and influences, that much of the in "ruling" establishment is "hand downs" from other "elites" and hereditary "placements".

If there is discontentment within the EU bureaucracy and administration, argue for changes, get other countries to support you, not storm out like adolescents picking up their ball and running home and bolting the doors.

I would like to see a coherent system of laws and government throughout the EU, but that does not mean I don't wish to have "local" government representation which presents and argue "problem" cases.

-=-=-=-=

I think it not unreasonable to have controls on immigration and rapid large influx from the EU or the world, in general, can be problematic.

What I don't like is scapegoating a faction in a society for the problems of that society.

(The problem with drawing up fair rules for immigration is difficult and one member of my family has been working in this area for years.)

The problem with rules and regulations being implemented is covering the difficulties and the possible "twists" and "turns" without the going into the minutiae. Especially when dealing with the slightly different cultures and expectancies.

==-=-=-=-=-=

I wrote 5years ago that I thought the "austerity" path chosen by Osborne and Cameron 6years ago was wrong.

I thought "borrowing" at low-interest rates could have been used to "invest" in housing, infrastructure etc. in order to stimulate the economy. (Not against cutting out wastage and crazy PFI contracts.)

But I think some are in cloud cuckoo land if they think "escaping" from the EU will help the UK to overcome its present economic problems. I hope there isn't a recession and ongoing depression.

The way that the UK is leaving the EU will leave a bad taste in the Europeans mouths and a feeling that the UK is an untrustworthy partner and they will prefer to deal with those they think they can trust more.

In the longterm Brexit will be beneficial to the UK.....Britain will get better trade deals and immigration can be better monitored than it is to day....there are no border controls between the EU countries....except for customs trying to catch drug dealers and a few others...it's crazy as it is....it's difficult to set up all these new terms that Davis and Boris are going through but eventually it will have been all worthwhile doing....

Hear Hear!! rf. What a miserable doom mongering, plastic lefty above, Keep the red flag flying Freda :0)

required field,

The UK aren't in the Schengen zone, and have always had total control of their own borders while they've been in the UK.

If they haven't been able to secure their borders up until now, what makes you think anything is going to change after they leave?

And what makes you think a trade deal with the US to buy their crappy Chryslers, and a trade deal with China to buy crap plastic toys, will be better than a trade deal with the EU to buy their Mercs and Grand Cru?

Here's a Schengen border. Look, no queues.

Spot the difference?

Yes, one is going where no-one wants to go: the other is going where everyone wants to.

Well neither picture is of people wanting to get into the UK, iturama. And you might be surprised to learn that the number of people passing through both borders each year isn't too dissimilar.

I agree that most of the problems we have now are entirely home made and will likely continue long after we have left the EU. Despite being a small island in the North Atlantic, it is amazing how many Chinese, Vietnamese and 'Stanalese have decided this is actually their true home. That apart, what is your point Hilary?

The 'point', iturama, is that the UK needs young, working immigration who pay taxes and help fund the welfare of an ageing population. When those young tax payers get old, they'll also need support, but, hey, that'll be somebody else's problem.

And yet, despite needing immigration, you close your borders in a futile attempt to keep undesirables out instead of changing your system such that it stops them wanting to come in the first place.

Somehow, I think some Brexiters are going to be mightily disappointed when they discover what they get from Brexit isn't what they thought they were voting for...

It and 251

Have a look at :

"We shouldn’t even be contemplating leaving the single market"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/19/wishful-brexit-thinking-will-not-create-jobs-or-fund-public-services


-=-==-=-=

and another quick look at "Britains Economy in Five Charts" which is included on the Business page.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/18/chancellor-hammond-budget-big-five

Well, I welcome most immigrants into the UK but I do want to see control on the numbers - as against 'no control' and theoretically unlimited numbers.

Isn't that what Farage wanted? I seem to think it is. He got into trouble by specifically mentioning Romanians. Then lots of his political opponents called him 'a rascist'.

IMHO, scruffy Romanian young men do most closely seem to resemble scruffy members of the 'travelling community' and these latter do seem to have a high criminal element in their numbers, albeit mostly with 'civil' matters. Illegal immigrants would seem to theoretically align easily with people of 'no fixed abode' too.

Perhaps Farage had similar feelings? Hence he is famous for making the general statement, "You would feel concerned if a group of Romanians moved in next door."

Perhaps he should have simply said, "immigrant criminals moved in next door" without mentioning any particular country?

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27459923

Absolutely, Doc.

I'd feel concerned if a group of Romanians moved in next door. Fortunately, they can't afford to. :o)

:-)

Ah, and so we get to the bottom line for Hilly.


Je vais bien Jacques..

EU budget wars heat up as Brexit reality starts to hit home



By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
16 November 2017 • 8:28pm


The Plaza Mayor of Trujillo. Regions like Extremadura in Spain would lose all their EU regional funding under plans floated in Brussels Credit: Guias Viajar


Brussels has begun to circulate the first confidential papers on how to plug the gaping hole in EU finances after Brexit, provoking serious alarm in regions and poorer countries across the bloc.

British withdrawal will slash EU revenues by 16pc once the current budget framework ends in 2020, forcing the Brussels to confront vocal vested interests. It threatens to ignite bitter divisions.

Draft documents from the European Commission map out three scenarios for the regions, including a drastic suspension of all aid to backward areas in the majority of countries. Payments would be confined to ‘cohesion’ funds for countries with per capita income below 90pc of the EU average, essentially Eastern Europe, Greece, and Portugal.


More if you pay: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/11/16/eu-budget-wars-heat-brexit-reality-starts-hit-home/

Max,

I'm not so sure that it's a good idea to try to translate proper nouns, but, as you have already done so, I presume you're unaware that Jacques translates closest to James.

What about all these machines and robots that are going to take over then , massive unemployment in the future ? . People too much time on their hands not good .

I'm sure you are right hilly, but it seemed apt given that you appear to be comfortable and don't really give a shit about anyone less fortunate than yourself.

You wont find this on mainstream news, but it might give you pause for thought...cos, if everything is rosy, why would they even think of getting rid of this protection?




ECB Proposes End To Deposit Protection


by Tyler Durden

Nov 19, 2017 10:46 AM



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-19/ecb-proposes-end-deposit-protection