Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

the solution would be to be governed by the plutocracy as in days of yore
they wouldn't need to be paid and would always have the interests of the country at heart ......... with the obvious proviso that those interests coincided with their own

Rubbish.

Try representative meritocracy.

Farages's little england.

now THAT really is rubbish!
who defines the representative bit and who decides the rules on merit?

you'll have us running an athenian democracy if we don't watch out

From the Telegraph:

Jacob Rees-Mogg to lead Eurosceptic Tory MPs and 'hold Government to account' over Brexit

Jacob Rees-Mogg, a Eurosceptic Tory MP, is expected to lead the European Reform Group

Steven Swinford, deputy political editor
16 JANUARY 2018 • 6:23PM

Jacob Rees-Mogg has been elected as leader of an influential Eurosceptic group of Tory MPs and vowed to hold the Government to account over Brexit.

Eurosceptics said that Mr Rees-Mogg, who is stood unopposed to become head the European Research Group, is the ideal candidate for the role because he is a "true believer" in Brexit and the benefits it can bring for Britain.

It comes amid concerns that the group, which has more than 60 Eurosceptic Tory MPs, has recently been too weak and failed to do enough to challenge the Government.

Mr Rees-Mogg said: “I am delighted to have been elected in succession to Suella Fernandes and Steve Baker who were both superb Chairmen. In this role I am keen to help the Government implement the principles laid down by the Prime Minister, Mrs. Theresa May, in her Lancaster House speech.

"It is especially important to achieve control of our laws, control immigration and achieve new trade agreements with other countries. The ERG speaks individually, not with the collective view, but has considerable support across the Parliamentary Party. As Chairman I intend to be helpful, vigorous and supportive towards Government policy of making a success of Brexit.”

His appointment comes at a critical time in negotiations, as Theresa May seeks to reach an agreement with her divided Cabinet over Britain's future relationship with the European Union.

He told The Telegraph: "The ERG has an important role to play in representing back-bench Eurosceptic views both to the Government and the wider public.

"There is a strong desire to ensure that the positive emphasis of Brexit is maintained and we focus on the ambition of Brexit to create a more prosperous Britain rather than being bogged down in the minutiae of negotiations.”

The European Reform Group played a key role in the EU referendum as it mobilised Eurosceptic Tory MPs against David Cameron and his pro-Remain Cabinet ministers including George Osborne, the Chancellor.

However senior Eurosceptics said that the group has been far less effective under the leadership of Suella Fernandes, who chaired it while also serving as an aide to Philip Hammond, the Chancellor.

One senior Eurosceptic and supporter of Mr Rees-Mogg told The Telegraph: "We are going to look at Cabinet members and make them stand up for Britain.

"There are a lot of things that need to be argued for as we enter the next phase of negotiations. We must be at the forefront of the debate."

The appointment is a significant move for Mr Rees-Mogg, who has been hailed as a potential future leader of the Conservative Party for his traditional Tory values and uncompromising views on Brexit.

Tusk said yesterday he would be happy for the UK to change its mind and remain in the EU and was backed up later by Junker.

Well there's a surprise , suddenly realising we are really leaving their Mickey Mouse club and there's no one to step up and fill the financial gap it will leave in their finances.

Unless we get a cracking deal I'm still in favour of walking away with nothing and not paying them a penny.

And the remoaners have had it too easy so far , getting all the air time to spout their rubbish so anything that Rees Mogg and even Farage can do to put this right gets my blessing.

Day after day we get bleating remoaners complaining about this and moaning about that and blaming Brexit for everything under the sun while the silent majority just want to get on with leaving.

The last time the UK retreated from Europe it was led back by the "Allies".

At least at that time, it had the USA to borrow off.

Have a look to see how long the payoff took.

This time it seems there are fewer allies who wish to help out and the costs are higher.

Mind, if the UK fragments there will be 40 million little englanders and Dil to shout "help", if or when they escape from the EU.

What a victory!

What costs are higher Fred and who doesn't want to help out with what ?

And there wouldn't be an EU if it weren't for the UK and its allies.

I reckon your on something , if not you should be.

P8495

Far from being 'little englanders' we leavers seek to have trading partners worldwide, not for us the inefficient protectionist euro club. You would be more accurate with 'little europeans'

have you guys not yet learned that fred will always argue that black is white, and if you then agree, he'll change tack and say no, white is black

It depends on the amount of light being shone.

I'm a shining light.

personally, i voted out with great misgivings and considerable reluctance ...... i am now ever more pleased that i did

like everyone else, i don't know what the future will bring - not that one ever does - but i dislike what i see emanating from brussels more and more

it's always the easy option to accept the status quo and to fail to take an action because one is afraid of the perceived risk .... that so few run their own businesses is a good example

Agreed.

Majority of Britons think UK is right to leave the European Union for first time in six months


By Christopher Hope, Chief Political Correspondent
19 January 2018 • 7:42pm




A majority of Britons believe that the country was right to vote for Brexit for the first time in six months.

A new poll by YouGov found that 45 per cent of people think Britons were right to vote to leave the European Union, up three per cent.

The same poll found that 44 per cent of people think the UK is wrong to want to leave, down two per cent.

The YouGov tracking poll tests the will of the people with regularly survey.

Matthew Goodwin, the polling expert, said it was the first time since July 2007 that “right has been ahead” of wrong in the tracking poll.

He added: “As I have argued since June 2016, we will see no major shifts in public opinion on this question because it is a vote that is far more expressive/value driven than 'normal' policy choices.”


There is a pic here (cant post) and the rest of the article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/19/majority-britons-think-uk-right-leave-european-union-first-time/

For some an interesting article by Andrew Rawnsley.

Unfortunately, you may need more than Manuel's attention span to read or understand it.

Democracy is more fragile than many of us realised, but don’t believe that it is doomed
Andrew Rawnsley Andrew Rawnsley


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/21/democracy-is-more-fragile-than-many-of-us-realised-but-do-not-believe-that-it-is-doomed

Interesting article Fred.

However, we don't need another referendum.

If you read the comments, you will see a reply that sums you lot up:



Okay, we’ve had a referendum...

...you didn’t like the outcome...

...so we had a general election and 85% of candidates were voted into Westminster on a Brexit platform...

...you didn’t like the outcome...

...so now you want a second referendum, which you’ll loose too...

...and you won’t like the out come...

...Liberals hate democracy, please spare me your platitudes!