This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Blinger, you dont seem to have study world history the situations you are quoting such as Sadam, Apartied etc were only possible because of the US, UK and other western powers supporting these scum bags they were armed to the teeth by the UK and the US, the UK and the US are the 2 biggest arms exporters in the world, because it suited them at the time, the UKs record on human rights under its empire was horrific and the US as well. What are the facts and what is your motive and then you might get somewhere near the truth

Blinger
Good points, and judging from the frenzed retorts well made I think, as to the rest
welcome to the real world
loadsa

davea3: Another calumny. The British Empire's record on human rights was not "horrific". That is latter-day revisionism. Read "Empire" by Niall Ferguson for a more balanced historical picture that that which was clearly stuffed down your throat at school.

Loads - You need go back and read it again, the only frenzied comments have come from blinger.

Hmmm. Seems to me that bringing up the old "What a bunch of bastards we were when we had an empire" argument is very likely to lead to a thread better entitled "What have the Romans ever done for us........"
Alan

mm - yes we have a brilliant record in India.

India -- ah, the world's biggest democracy. Made a mess of that, didn't we?

Kivver,
I wish I had cut out and kept a series of letters published in The Gulf Times around August 2001 (I think).
They started with a letter from an ex-pat Englishman lambasting the state of India and Pakistan and putting the blame squarely on The British Empire and what we did.
He suggested the UK should compensate the Indians and Pakistanis for the problems we caused.
This was replied to by a series of Indians along the lines of;
"yeah. You should give us decent infrastructure. Sorry, you built the railroads and highways. Or perhaps healthcare. Oh no, forgot, you created and funded an NHS. What about free education. Ah, you organised that too. And built the finest universities in the asian world. How about democracy. Oh. That was another thing you gave us. Well our army. Sorry, forget I said that. You created and armed that too.
Justice. That is som......... No. My mistake. We have a legal system and trial by jury that you instigated. How about a police force for local security? That was your idea too?

The letters went on for some time and could probably be echoed around the world. The point is, it was rare that we withdrew and left the country worse off than it had been. Usually quite the reverse.
Alan

Just another small point on this (to stir it up a bit).
Which was the better place to live (for all peoples); Rhodesia under Robert Smith or Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe?

We seemed to have concentrated on only one of the questions posed.

I still would like to read views on rendition and whether as the result of the invasion of Iraq we are safer from terrorism or in greater peril.

Is Iraq a training ground for other places ie America, Britain etc at a later date.

Will the middle East inflate oil prices over the coming years in an attempt to disrupt the World Economies.


Was the invasion of Afghanistan a success and is the placement of British troops there in the aftermath of the American policy a good idea.

I would like to write I have nothing against the American people, the
French, Spanish or even the English people and through my travels (fairly limited compared with many on this board) found the values in general to be similar.

However, I do have antagonism to many acts of the administration of those countries which are done in the name of their people.

Alan - i dont claim too know much about India or our history there as part of the BE. I just know our human rights issues left a lot to be desired. For examle you say we helped build Railways, how was this done???

On a seperate point, its a pleasure to debate with you because we disagree on most points on this thread apart from the US, but we have not resorted insults and have tried to justify what we believe with reasonable argument. Its would be nice if some of the others could do the same. apart from fred of course.

I am afraid Fred, that in my opinion, for what its worth, Terrorism is a fact of life and will continue to be so, regardless of how the countries you mentioned act. There can be no negotiation with any terrorists. There is a way of life to defend, and a freedom at stake.
The peoples of Indonesia can hardly blame their government for the atrocities visited on them by terrorists, and Australia had a very narrow squeek recently.
To my mind, Iraq and Afghanistan are simply reasons that the terrorists can pin their claims on and I really do think had they not happened, then another "reason" would be found.
People have preached hatred against the west for millenia. This has not changed due to recent global events.
What has changed are the abilities of the terrorists to communicate and plan more effectively and covertly, and to have access to more destructive capabilities than ever before. This is why the world has seen a sea change in our attitudes towards terrorists who are getting more and more desperate. This is why the world is less safe than ever before.
Unfortunately, I think the ante will be cranked up, with greater atrocities having to be met by greater retaliation until, as history teaches us, the terrorists will cease due to dwindling support and a certain knowledge that they are not untouchable. they will be caught and (hopefully) feel the might of a full and just legal retribution.
Alan

Agreed Kivver. And I must admit I have little knowledge of the Indian Railways and how they were constructed.
I was fortunate enough to work in the Middle East for a while and it was a very racially mixed area. I was worried about the rest of the worlds view on The Uk and colonialism and how they would react to me, but was astonished to find that the huge majority of ex-colonial ex-pats there, from Asia, Arabia and Africa, were of the opinion that we had actually left them in a good state with huge improvements to their lives and economy and their own leaders had let them down by mis-management and squandering! This was the exact opposite of what I was taught in school.
Would you believe that some black Africans went as far as to say they would welcome colonial rule back, even if it meant Apartheid. I didn't take the last bit too seriously, but it was indicative of the general feeling from people who had realised there were better opportunities than their country could offer them.
I also got an entirely new perspective on racial and sexual equality, but thereby hangs another tale.
Alan

Kivver,
Just had a thought on human rights.
If you are saying that the record is appalling by todays standards, then you are probably right, but by the standards of the day, this may not be the case.
Many of the practices we now see as unnacceptable and almost sub human were (and still are in some countries) quite the norm then and nobody would dream of questioning them.
For instance, the slavery of the blacks in Africa is not so far removed from the workhouse and the apprenticeship system that was current in the UK. The terrible punishments meted out for minor crimes were no worse than those acceptable to her majestys navy for sailors who didn't toe the line.
The point is that the conditions were not based on some idea of inferiority due to colour or nationality, but were based on the master and servent ideal that was prevelent throughout the world.
To show that we have moved on dramatically, while other parts of the world have not, it may interest you to know that in some countries certain nationalities are paid superb wages while others are forced to live below the poverty line. Ones nationality also defines the kind of housing and schooling available. This is not a strange and backward land and the situation is not hidden away from view. It is actually endorsed by the government and its offices in the country concerned.
I don't think we have too much to be ashamed of on the human rights front.
Alan

Not sure that i liked the British Empire being showed as pink on the maps.

HEALTH WARNING
Reading Hewittalan6 posts can damage your health.

I'm a psychiatrist with an office here in Shatwell.Some of you seem rather angry and would benefit from my counselling.I think there are certain issues here needing to be challenged.

Holbeg ,that's very nice of you but we have our own psychiatrist on moneyam ,,Bosley has his own counselling thread.

You have got to be mad to be a psychiatrist in Shatwell, by the way have you paid Moneyam to advertise for clients here ?

Hobleg

That is the very point. The issues here are very challenging.

Keep taking the tablets!

Nam