This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

I would suggest as a balance to the above that one should read a book published a number of years ago called "The Brotherhood", sorry can't provide the author's name.

But from dealings with a group of said members in an organisation I thought at first I was dealing with members of the Klu Klux Clan.

I was invited to become a member of a lodge but declined having read and questioned members who were very apprehensive about giving information of a "boys only club".

I also am aware that they have been supportive to many members and families who fell on hard times.

waveydavey - I saw it as well. Throws a completely new perspective into why America shows such an interest in the gulf states, etc. It has nothing to do with oil (as so many will have us believe). It's all about protecting Israel and trying to make the End Time come quickly.

This really is more scary.

I have a brain and so don't believe in religion of any form. Unfortunately, it seems that the people in power believe all this end is nigh rubbish, and they have the means to bring it about.

Self fullfilling prophecy.

Kenneth Noye...master mason...convicted murderer...need i say more

Yes, very scary. Are the goals of end-timers totally selfish? What if their interpretations are wrong or deliberately mistaken? Are they really helping the Jews and the human race by fermenting and encouraging conflicts and hatred ???

Have many souls have been saved, if any, by the Spanish Inquisition?

got nothing against masons. Could'nt give a rats testicle if your thing is bearing your nipple and flashing your knee at others.
i work in an organisation that has a long tradition of masonic membership. as long as the private life does'nt influence the professional jugdement or actions then -whats the harm.
these days most masonic lodges are just glorified 'clubs for the boys'.
have to agree with waveydavey- these 'end timers' are scary buggers.

maestro - 18 Sep 2006 16:34 - 882 of 884
Kenneth Noye...master mason...convicted murderer...need i say more

Maestro --- it's a dangerous assumption you make, you are labelling all masons as evil. it's stereotyping. You would'nt agree all muslims are terrorists because of the actions of a few?

I think all Masons are Oddfellows [ thats the best i can do at short notice ] LOL

wavey...masons worship lucifer the horned goat YA BUL ON...bloody evil the lot of them imho...no excuse to join such a corrupt organisation

Liquid Bomb Plot a "Fiction"
( Home Liquid Bomb Plot a... )
Submitted by GeorgeWashington on Mon, 09/18/2006 - 1:08pm.
9/11 | disinformation | Fear

A former senior British Army Intelligence Officer now says the "liquid bombing plot" was part of a "pattern of lies and deceit." He also casts doubt on the London bombings.

This breakthrough article by Nafeez Ahmed, published in Raw Story, helps blow the lid off of the whole terror scare strategy used by Britian, the U.S. and other nations.

It is helpful for 9/11 truth, as it helps document government scare tactics, protecting patsies, and other techniques of fear and deceit -- of which false flag attacks such as 9/11 are a part - which governments use to control their populations and justify their imperial agendas.

"Lieutenant-Colonel (ret.) Nigel Wylde, a former senior British Army Intelligence Officer, has suggested that the police and government story about the "terror plot" revealed on 10th August was part of a "pattern of lies and deceit."

British and American government officials have described the operation which resulting in the arrest of 24 mostly British Muslim suspects, as a resounding success. Thirteen of the suspects have been charged, and two released without charges.

According to security sources, the terror suspects were planning to board up to ten civilian airliners and detonate highly volatile liquid explosives on the planes in a spectacular terrorist operation. The liquid explosives -- either TATP (Triacetone Triperoxide), DADP (diacetone diperoxide) or the less sensitive HMTD (hexamethylene triperoxide diamine) -- were reportedly to be made on board the planes by mixing sports drinks with a peroxide-based household gel and then be detonated using an MP3 player or mobile phone.

But Lt. Col. Wylde, who was awarded the Queen's Gallantry Medal for his command of the Belfast Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit in 1974, described this scenario as a "fiction." Creating liquid explosives is a "highly dangerous and sophisticated task," he states, one that requires not only significant chemical expertise but also appropriate equipment.

Terror plot scenario "untenable"

"The idea that these people could sit in the plane toilet and simply mix together these normal household fluids to create a high explosive capable of blowing up the entire aircraft is untenable," said Lt. Col. Wylde, who was trained as an ammunition technical officer responsible for terrorist bomb disposal at the Royal Army Ordnance Corps in Sandhurst.

After working as a bomb defuser in Northern Ireland, Lt. Col. Wylde became a senior officer in British Army Intelligence in 1977. During the Cold War, he collected intelligence as part of an undercover East German "liaison unit," then went on to work in the Ministry of Defense to review its communications systems.

"So who came up with the idea that a bomb could be made on board? Not Al Qaeda for sure. It would not work. Bin Laden is interested in success not deterrence by failure," Wylde stated.

"This story has been blown out of all proportion. The liquids would need to be carefully distilled at freezing temperatures to extract the required chemicals, which are very difficult to obtain in the purities needed."

Once the fluids have been extracted, the process of mixing them produces significant amounts of heat and vile fumes. "The resulting liquid then needs some hours at room temperature for the white crystals that are the explosive to develop." The whole process, which can take between 12 and 36 hours, is "very dangerous, even in a lab, and can lead to premature detonation," said Lt. Col. Wylde.

If there was a conspiracy, he added, "it did not involve manufacturing the explosives in the loo," as this simply "could not have worked." The process would be quickly and easily detected. The fumes of the chemicals in the toilet "would be smelt by anybody in the area." They would also inevitably "cause the alarms in the toilet and in the air change system in the aircraft to be triggered. The pilot has the ability to dump all the air from an aircraft as a fire-fighting measure, leaving people to use oxygen masks. All this means the planned attack would be detected long before the queues outside the loo had grown to enormous lengths."

Government silent on detonators

Even if it was possible for the explosive to have been made on the aircraft, a detonator, probably made from TATP, would be needed to set it off. "It is very dangerous and risky to the individual," Wylde said. "As the quantity involved would be small this would injure the would-be suicide bomber but not endanger the aircraft, thus defeating the object of bringing down an aircraft."

Despite the implausibility of this scenario, it has been used to justify wide-ranging new security measures that threaten to permanently curtail civil liberties and to suspend sections of the United Kingdom's Human Rights Act of 1998. "Why were the public delicately informed of an alleged conspiracy which the authorities knew, or should have known, could not have worked?" asked Lt. Col. Wylde.

"This is not a new problem," he added, noting that 'shoe-bomber' Richard Reid had attempted to use this type of explosive on a plane in December 2001. "If this threat is real, what has been done to develop explosive test kits capable of detecting peroxide based explosives?" asked Wylde. "These are the real issues about protecting the public that have not been publicised. Instead we are going to get demands for more internment without trial."

Lt. Col. Wylde also raised questions about the criminal investigation into the 7th July terrorist attacks in London last year. He noted that police and government sources have maintained "total silence" about the detonation devices used in the bombs on the London Underground and the bus at Tavistock Square. "Whatever the nature of the primary explosive materials, even if it was home-made TATP, the detonator that must be used to trigger an explosion is an extremely dangerous device to make, requiring a high level of expertise that cannot be simply self-taught or picked-up over the internet," Wylde stated.

The government's silence on the detonation device used in the attacks is "disturbing," he said, as the creation of the devices requires the involvement of trained explosives experts. Wylde speculated that such individuals would have to be present either inside the country or outside, perhaps in Eastern Europe, where they would be active participants in an international supply-chain to UK operatives. "In either case, we are talking about something far more dangerous than home-grown radicals here."

Spy slams police inaction against terrorists

Wylde's concerns are echoed by others familiar with British terrorism-related intelligence operations, such as Glen Jenvey, who is profiled in the bestselling book, The Terror Tracker, by terrorism investigator Neil Doyle. Jenvey worked for several military attaches monitoring terrorist groups in London and obtained crucial video and surveillance evidence used by British police to arrest radical cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri, who was convicted last February.

"I've been closely monitoring the internet communications of extremist Muslim groups inside the UK both before and after 7/7, and they are intimately interconnected," said Jenvey, who is affiliated with the London-based terror watch group VIGIL. "We've identified a coordinated leadership of at least 20 and up to 60 people, extremist preachers with blatant international al-Qaeda terrorist connections."

Jenvey noted that even though they are known to the authorities and are monitored while breaking the law with impunity, particularly in their private sermons, the police have failed to take appropriate action against them. "The police don't need to round up and detain thousands of British Muslims. If they only arrested, charged and prosecuted these 20 key terrorist leaders, they will have a struck a fatal blow against the epicentres of al-Qaeda extremism in the UK. But they're sitting on this."

Jenvey points to Omar Bakri Mohammed, a colleague of convicted terrorist Abu Hamza who headed the now-banned Islamist group al-Muhajiroun in the United Kingdom. Despite being exiled to Lebanon, Omar Bakri continues to communicate with UK-based extremist groups which are believed to be successors of al-Muhajiroun operating under new names, including the Saved Sect and al-Ghurabaa. British security sources have confirmed that the 7/7 bombers were associates of Omar Bakri's network, and Bakri himself publicly boasted a year before the London bombings that an al-Qaeda cell in London was planning a terrorist strike.

An investigation by the counterterrorism unit in the New York Police Department found that Bakri's al-Muhajiroun had formed 81 front groups and support networks in six countries, most of them based in London, the home counties bordering London, the Midlands, Lancashire and West Yorkshire. By the time Home Secretary Dr. John Reid moved in July to proscribe the latest incarnation of al-Muhajiroun, al-Ghurabaa, this sprawling interconnected network was fully functioning and continues to operate namelessly, despite proscription. Bakri's network has recently adopted the name "Al Sabiqoon Al-Awwaloon".

Jenvey complains that, despite the arrest in early September of radical cleric Abu Abdullah, convicted terrorist Abu Hamza's successor at the Finsbury Park Mosque, a "hardcore group of 20 or more extremists operating around Omar Bakri" remains at large. "The police have every reason to act, and they know who these people are. Their failure to do so has only exacerbated unjustified demonization of Muslims. These extremists are not Muslims in any meaningful sense, they are simply terrorists obsessed with violence."

MI5, MI6 recruiting extremists?

Even the arrest of Abu Abdullah only occurred after his support for terrorism was widely reported in the British and American media in late August. On 23rd August, he justified the killing of Westerners and told CNN correspondent Dan Rivers that Tony Blair is a "legitimate target" of jihad. The Sunday Times remarked that he "is apparently being allowed to operate unchecked by the authorities five months after a law was passed making it a criminal offence to glorify terrorism."

Torture may have been used to extract evidence for the weekend police raids which resulted in the arrest of 14 British Muslims, including Abdullah. Sources confirm that information came from detainees at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo, where interrogation techniques classified as torture under international law are routinely used.

The reluctance to take decisive action against the leadership of the extremist network in the UK has a long history. According to John Loftus, a former Justice Department prosecutor, Omar Bakri and Abu Hamza, as well as the suspected mastermind of the London bombings Haroon Aswat, were all recruited by MI6 in the mid-1990s to draft up British Muslims to fight in Kosovo. American and French security sources corroborate the revelation. The MI6 connection raises questions about Bakri's relationship with British authorities today. Exiled to Lebanon and outside British jurisdiction, he is effectively immune to prosecution.

Other London-based radical clerics with terrorist connections also had a relationship to the security services. Abu Qatada, described as al-Qaeda's European ambassador, was, according to French sources a long-time MI5 informant. Pakistani government insiders similarly believe that Ahmed Omar Sheikh Saeed, the British al-Qaeda finance chief from Forest Gate, not only worked with the ISI, Pakistani's military intelligence service, but was also recruited by the CIA as an informant. Saeed, who reportedly wired several hundred thousand dollars to alleged chief 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta, is currently in Pakistani custody for the murder of Wall Street Journal journalist Daniel Pearl.

Omar Bakri regularly uses the internet to communicate from Lebanon with his followers in Britain. On Sunday evening, 3rd September, Omar Bakri told participants in an online chat forum that he had been pulled in by the Lebanese authorities at the request of the US and British governments and questioned in relation to the "terror plot". Although he denied involvement in the plot, he claimed that some of the 24 British Muslim suspects were known to him. When asked to confirm or deny whether Bakri had indeed been arrested at the request of the British, the Foreign Office had no comment. Bakri said that he was regularly questioned by Lebanese officials on behalf of the British government.

The official reluctance to act against Bakri and his active associates in the UK does not match the government's willingness to act pre-emptively to foil a plot of doubtful reality. Official reluctance to acknowledge the significance of the detonators used in the 7/7 terrorist operation suggests that the threat is far more sophisticated than authorities have admitted, and that emphasis on home-grown amateurs is mistaken. Lt. Col. Wylde's observations would seem to indicate that the terror-threat narrative is being manipulated for reasons of political expediency."

Maestro- I think your views are almost as disturbing as the 'end timers'
;-)

Star, Belief or non-belief is not a sign of intelligence. Einstein believed in a "God or superior entity". Bertram Russel didn't. I think you will find as many intelligent people on one side of the fence as the other.

Personally, I prefer decision making on thinking and weighing up the balance of results and the probabilities of those results occurring before actions being taken. At least one is trying to foresee the outcome and the possible pain.

But beliefs are personal and I cease arguing about a "god" when my father pointed out to me that for him it gave an explanation and a meaning to life. We never argued about the existence or nor-existence of a god after that.

I wish he had taught me to spell though. Thank God for the spell checker!

tweenie..check out these guys...

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: Alex Jones and supporters confront globalists..great stuff!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/130906confrontcfr.htm

click on 2nd picture

After events in the last few years I do wonder when, not if, one or more of the following will happen ...

- Tony Robinson found dead with a suicide note next to him.
- Tony Robinson died of a heart attack while on a dig.
- Documents were found by reporters digging through a road side rubbish bin / dump / blowing across the road / ... There are some interesting stories about Tony Robinson.
- Some family members or close friends of Tony Robinson are found wanting in some financial matters or perosnal conducts.
- Several countries deny him entry for future programs.

etc etc

Was there some point you were trying to make in that post ? or was it just ment to be a joke.

On the Iraq war theme this may be of Interest to anyone living near Oxford tonight.


> The Oxford Stop the War Coalition has organised a
> Public Meeting for
> this coming Tuesday, September 19th, at 7:30 PM in
> the Town Hall on
> St. Aldates. The theme of the meeting is The Arc of
> Extremism: Bush,
> Blair, Olmert.
>
> The speakers for this timely event are Craig Murray,
> the former UK
> ambassador to Uzbekistan who was sacked for exposing
> human rights
> violations, Debb Buchholtz (OSTWC), Caroline Raine
> (reporting back
> on her recent solidarity visit to Palestine), and a
> Lebanese person.
> Discussion will follow. Everyone is welcome.

might go along to that meeting...Craig Murray is a good speaker

Craig Murray,
> the former UK
> ambassador to Uzbekistan who was sacked for exposing
> human rights


Was also for shagging local girls and going native, or was that another ambassador.

I find it difficult to imagine what the opinion would be if the girls were at a distance.

I think he denied much of what he was purported to have done, other than decry the foreign offices pussy footing around the abusive dictatorship's human rights record. Mind they do have oil etc.

aldwick...telling lies again

Know Your Enemy
September 18th, 2006



Five years after we finally noticed that Muslim enemies were at war with us we still havent identified those enemies or developed a realistic strategy for victory. The depth of our confusion shows in the ridiculous debates that preoccupy our politicians and journalists.

Is it proper to call our enemies Islamic fascists? Does this term denigrate Islam with the unfair suggestion that the Muslim faith is responsible for terrorism? Strangely enough, nobody asks whether the term unfairly denigrates the memory of Il Duce. President Bushs speech writers used the term Islamic fascism just once recently. The resulting firestorm sent the administration scurrying for cover; the offending term has disappeared from the Presidents public vocabulary.

Did Pope Benedict give Muslims cause for offense by quoting the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus (born 1350, died 1425)? Manuel once scored debating points on a Persian scholar by demanding

[s]how me just what Mohammed brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.

The Pope quoted this language in the midst of an interesting lecture on the proper relationship of faith and reason. The Muslim world still is ramping up for another tantrum like the cartoon riots that broke out last February.

Manuel certainly knew what he was talking about. He spent some time as a hostage in the court of one Muslim neighbor and he spent a lifetime fighting back against expansionist Islam. Almost nobody pauses to consider that Manuel might have something to teach us. Instead our conversation centers on whether the Pope is to blame for riling Muslims up and what he (and we) can do to mollify them.



http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5866


;-)

aldwick...watch and learn muppet! 7/7 inside job...Netanyaha implicated

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4943675105275097719&q=Ludicrous%20Diversion