Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

For Manuel from another tory idiot!


Tories’ Brexit unity fades as Heseltine slams May’s speech


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/03/tories-brexit-michael-heseltine-theresa-may






But I forgot he disagrees with the neo-cons.

interesting that corbyn and cable surely come from very different angles

i confess i've rather lost track of cable ..... i know used to rate him quite highly, but i don't have any idea what sort of deal he would seek with eu

corbyn's line is suddenly very much to stay in, and though he pretends he would honour the public's wish to extricate itself from europe, neither his words nor his actions support that

Manuel,

Suggest a read of The Observer view on Theresa May’s Brexit speech
Observer editorial :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/04/the-observer-view-on-theresa-mays-brexit-speechhttp://

It expresses my fears.

-=-==-=

Corbyn has amongst other problems:

1) his own misgivings about some of the EU
2) he is the leader of a party and is trying to have a cohesive policy representative of the party's "desires or wishes" as a whole.
3) a lack of information on what "out" really means and the consequences of that "out".

That is the stupidity of the situation.

If you have staggered through p8813 have a look at Rawnsley appraisal:


It is beyond this prime minister to beat Brexit swords into ploughshares
Andrew Rawnsley

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/04/theresa-may-brexit-speech-mansion-house-swords-ploughshares


He is guessing as much as many others are.

i like bits of the guardian on most days and for many reasons, but the real key of the article you highlight, which brussels would also do well to take on board, is the obvious, "If a deal is to be done, then both sides will have to do some compromising"

the article also raises the question from the german journalist, "Is Brexit really worth it?"
an equivocal answer is the only answer, but certainly it is what the british public voted for

i have no idea what the final outcome will be, and nor does anyone else, but for sure i would hope that the rest of the eurozone does not allow itself to be led by the nose by the brussels heavyweights - eg juncker and his colleague wreckers




by and large i agree with you about "the stupidity of the situation"
in fact, corbyn (were he in power) would have exactly the same problems as tm ...... and of course corbyn knows, though he (and his union puppet-masters) doesn't want to face up to it, is that out means exactly that


we happen to disagree that the better way to sort out the overbearing power and other malpractices (profligacy and worse) of the eu was to stay in ....

my view, and that of many other (sensible) voters to leave, is that the only way to focus the mind of brussels was to leave or become something of a sacrificial lamb if you insist

"but certainly it is what the british public voted for"


Less than 33% of the possible electorate voted for stated "out", whatever they thought that meant to them at the time.

Perhaps, many did not like the slovenly way the referendum was stated.

-=-=-=-=

Britain leaving Britain will be followed by the EU tuning its back on the UK.

Work out, as a proportion, what trade with Britain means to each individual country of the EU.

-=-=-=-

By the way, to whom does the present cabinet bend over backwards and show their backsides to?

Friends in the Cayman Isles or Qatar?

-=-=-=

If there is a good case to plead again the "organisation", plead them in Brussels without going whining off into the wilderness.

Behave as big boys do.

Accept majority rulings but keep negotiating until one can sway opinion in you favour or review what you are requesting.

now try to offer a balanced view for a change .... it';s because you rarely (almost never do) that you are so boringly tiresome and thus ignored most of the time


perhaps start by practicing what you preach - accept majority rulings and behave as big boys do
to leave eu is what the majority who voted, voted for

those who failed to cast a vote one way or another, abdicated their responsibility and have no right to complain about the what the majority of those who voted did vote for

Manuel,

You are beginning to become more and more repetitive.

Senility advances.

-=-=-=-=

Those who voted against remaining in the EU were voting against a fictitious enemy, many being xenophobic and blaming others for their woes and the failures of themselves and their own poor government.

The goals and gains of voting out were ill-defined, pie in the sky and illusionary and fed by con artists to the discontented.

Rants similar to the neo-fascists in Germany in the 1930 and present day BNP.

(Are you affiliated to the latter. )

About 30% of the electorate voted for the unknown.

The unknown is still unknown and you seem daft enough to pay for it.

Perhaps, you will be able to buy a hideaway in Qatar.

-=--=-=-=-=-=-=

Those who voted against remaining in the EU were voting against a fictitious enemy ...... absolutely not so

one could make a similarly fatuous comment about those who voted to remain

i KNOW why i ultimately decided to vote out though, and as posted many times at the time, with grave misgivings

Who is it that keeps reminding us about wasting time talking to Fred when there are other things more useful to do do?

me sometimes, though not usually on here often enough to bother :-)

h/t to pineapple across the road.


More bad brexit news.

https://www.ft.com/content/b177c726-1c5b-11e8-956a-43db76e69936

from today's FT for you chaps to dwell on, and nop doubt bat about for at least a day ......

Talk to EU policymakers and you will be told that Britain has yet to make the hard choices on Brexit. The standard line is that Theresa May’s government is still trying to “have its cake and eat it” — leaving the EU, but retaining many of the benefits of membership. Britain must drop this “magical thinking” and make some crucial decisions. Once that is done, the structure of the future EU-UK relationship will be dictated by law and precedent.
That argument has some truth to it. But what it misses is that the EU also has important choices to make. By treating Brexit as, above all, a legal process, the EU is largely ignoring the political and strategic implications of Britain leaving the EU. That is an intellectual failure that could have dangerous consequences for all sides.

It is clearly true that the EU is a legal order. But it is also a political organisation. The EU is perfectly capable of creating new laws — or interpreting current ones with extreme flexibility — when it is politically necessary.

Most of the EU policymakers are left of centre and, like Fred, incapable of flexibility. Their answer is to batten down and demand obedience to their idealogy. Unfortunately for them, the common man eventually says - basta!

It,

It strikes me that a neo-con like you appear to be, never takes his blinkers off.

Mind you probably you go to the shop furthest away from you to buy your goods.

Surely it's the centrists who are flexible, and the extremists of both sides who aren't?

as is nearly always the case hilary

Hilary,

As an extremist Manuel knows what he is talking about and certainly believes in his own fluctuating opinions.

The basic requirements of the far right such as BNP and Neo-cons.

;-)

Perhaps, Manuel sees himself as Horatius with JB and Vicky defending the tunnel against Macron.


(I will have a lie down after that construction.)