Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Gawd , still bloody moaning.

Such bad losers.

Cynic

You say, "EL - i'm in the office ... why?"

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. eg. Do you ask if I know why you are in 'the office'? Hmmm? I think not. So what might you be implying? Hmmm?

Anyhow, please look at my post at 8889 as a response to Fred's cartoon at 8888.

I regard the cartoon to be a negative towards BJ and also a negative to what it said on the side of the bus. I'm not exactly sure why Fred posted it but let's examine just some of what it says:

In the cartoon, Boris Johnson is shown in front of the 'Vote Leave referendum bus' and saying to observers reading his speaking bubble, "Claims that VOTE LEAVE acted dishonestly are utterly ludicrous!"

I'm sick of hearing this 'vote leave acted dishonestly' accusation and it's hit a nerve for me. IMHO, Vote Leave did not act dishonestly with it's message on the side of the bus.

1. Boris has said on at least two occasions, to my knowledge, that the '£350m' we currently send to the EU, and are going to save when we finally exit the EU, might be an underestimation of how much we are going to save - and thus have available for something such as 'sending to the NHS instead of to the EU'. Others have said the same thing.

2. The bus message, in comparison to the government's 'Remain document', surely cannot be seen to be dishonest. In fact, how about vice -versa?

ie. The government's 'Remain message' cost £9.3m

The 'vote leave message' and possibly 'the entire vote leave campaign' cost nothing like that amount.

That's a bit of 'unfairness. Isn't it?

both sides lied or did not exactly tell ther truth

I thought that Vote Leave had admitted the £350m a week saving was a lie the day after the referendum. Like Cyners said though, the remain campaign was also littered with inaccuracies and negativity.

The only victims of the whole sad and sorry saga are the Great British public, who have been taken for fools by their elected representatives. Politicians of all sides are nothing more than self-centred scumbags imo.

"In 2016 the UK government paid £13.1 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4.5 billion. So the UK's 'net contribution' was estimated at about £8.6 billion."

For me, the cartoon was a representative of Boris's obvious honesty, integrity, humility, and obvious other abilities.


The problem I see at the moment is the self-advantaging of many political involved individuals at the expense of society as a whole.

In one way I think the vote at the referendum was more a rejection of the political leadership and disenchantment with their policies rather than a positive wish to move to a specific goal and they did not take into consideration the price they may have to pay.

Like many, I don't see the real benefits of the pathway which may be taken and think it wiser and cheaper to have negotiated for changes in the EU.

I have often held a minority opinion and been prepared to walk away, sometimes proved wrong and many times proved right, but I feel I would be a lemming if I did suggest that the bottle many are trying to offer me contains cyanide, not water.

Fred

For 40 odd years, people have found the €U not to their liking, and wanted change.

Finally someone made a mistake (call me dave) after so called negotiations with immovable objects (€U mafia) and called what they all thought was a done deal referendum.

They made a mistake, and they lost...game over!

Cameron should've backed Leave, Max. He said he would if he didn't get anything from Brussels. He didn't, and he wasn't ever going to get anything because the EU didn't need to give him anything at that juncture (as you alluded to, vis-a-vis EU mafia), so why didn't he stick to his word?

As for game over, I'm not even sure Soros has hit first base yet.....

Max.

27 other countries' representatives disagreed with the arrogant superiority of the UK's representative and their petulant supporters.

Generally, when the case for doing something is suggested for the benefit of all, the majority will agree to do what is requested.

When in a majority's opinion is against their wish, then the responsibility for the minority is to advance arguments and persuade change.

Arrogantly stating or demanding "we want this or that" and "to hell with your opinion" is not beneficial.

England no longer has gunboats and the EU countries are not colonies and the British are not a superior branch of humanity.

However, there may be strengths in it's past and present culture which would be beneficial for others and in the EU.

Fred , the majority were bound to be against anything we suggested as it was us getting screwed by them that we wanted fixing.

Hils , clutching at straws it ain't going to happen Soros or not. The deal that Cameron got was typical of the EU and its attitude to the UK. How Fred can advocate staying in and negotiating with them is a total joke given how that's worked out over the last 40 odd years.

1 year 2 days to go

I'm not clutching at any straws, Dilbert - Brexit doesn't affect me, so I'm playing Devil's Advocate and just looking at it from the outside in.

I know :-)

What are the odds now on second referendum and where are you looking Betfair ?

I can't access Betfair unless I go through Cyberghost. I just read the politicalbetting.com blog to wind you up.

:o)

Dil,

The EU has been working for 45years.

When the rules and regulations and laws of a state are failing you don't blow up the police stations, the law courts and the government buildings, you change the rules etc..

If your case for change is good and beneficial to all then it suggests your negotiators or ideas are inadequate or inappropriate.

Lol.

Betfair is illiquid but just looked and last price matched was 5.8/1 a referendum before 2020 and 14/1 before 2019.

More chance of Chelsea winning something and that won't happen either :-)

Course it's illiquid. It won't even start to get warm till Xmas, if at all. But hey, Muppet Baiting's still alive'n'kickin on £am.

Surprised you don't fancy us for the FA Cup though...

:o)

Full facts is a good site hilly, here's another one from there:





You can see who is winning the trade competition.


And the very same peeps have now installed one of their own as chief dog of the Kommission.

One Martin Selmayr...and you try to tell us the game isn't rigged?

Nah , Southampton for the cup.

Fred , even by your standards that has to be the worst comparison you have ever come out with. We didn't like what was happening so we had a democratic vote and via that decided for change.

Only thing that was blown up was the EU's lavish budget proposals at our expense for the foreseeable future.

Also Fred , why do you think the EU countries that are expelling Russians are doing so as individual countries and not as the EU ?

It's because for the EU to pass anything it would have had to have a unanimous decision and would have been too much hassle trying.

Everyone's seen that graphic, Max. It's old hat now, but it doesn't paint the full picture.

The fact is that the UK will probably always run a trade deficit. So, if you don't import your Mercs and Beemers from Germany, where will you buy your wheels post-Brexit? Will you all be driving crappy Chryslers from the US? Or Tuk Tuks from India?

And on a tit for tat basis, exports from the EU to the UK represent a mere 3% or 4% of the EU's economy which, will be a loss, but not a fantastic loss. Meanwhile, back in the Bat Cave, UK exports to the EU represent 13% of the UK's economy which is kinda humongous.

So, when I say Call Me sold your country short with his negative remain campaign, what I'm really saying is that he should probably be hung for treason. But hey, wdik?

cheaper food , cheaper clothes sod the Merc buy a Nissan and an extra 8.5 billion to pump back into the UK economy instead of the EU free loaders.

Where's the bad news Hils ?