Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Mind.

Jumbo and Manuel like the con artists, Gove included, generally attack the messenger when they don't like the message.

Adolescent behaviour. Stunted upbringing. Poor education.

Gove came across well...no theatrics, just solid reasons for bailing out. Even the journos couldn't find much to nit-pick about.

fred - your message - ie why we should stay in eu - is fine albeit that, should you ever get to a polling booth, you will vote differently from me

it's your supercilious belittling of all others that is so objectionable

therefore, would i shoot the messenger?
in this instance, a beheading would be better

cynic

Thanks Respect.



Gove has played his hand too early. Boris has set him up.

He has gone straight for the throats of Davy boy, Osborne and Mrs May. They must be fuming and penning their replies even as we speak. This has set the Tory party up for open warfare, there is no way back now, it's blue on blue.

Stand back and enjoy. The Tories have been held on a short leash for years, now it will be open war.

Severe damage will result.
In or out the Tories will be split. The EU vote is cover for Tory wars.

will - it would be foolish to pretend that labour is not similarly split, though clearly they are under a 3-line whip not to rock the boat

And that wont last.

Cynic

Yes, for sure Labour has splits too. It should be possible for all politicians to lobby for in or out without ripping their party apart.
But for the many Tories this is THE battle for the soul of the party. In and out are not happy in the same Tory party, they hate each other and now have the green light to go for it. After this in/out vote the winner gets called the new Tories. Those that lose the vote will not stay.
Perhaps we will get a re alinement in UK politics. Maybe even the loss of our left wing/right wing set up and a new grouping based around in and out.
Who knows. All change is good.

after the referendum, they'll all kiss and make up - before stabbing assorted fellows in the back

Cynic,

"an opinionated pain"

Your description of yourself suggests you have some insight into yourself.

You remind of a miniature Peekapoo which I saw the other day, looking up his own ---- and looking for admiration from others around it.

-=-==-=-=

PS.

Some members of the present neo-con party can't even speak to one another.

Splitting more and more and more interested in self-advancement that the country.

The question remains unanswered after many attempts of giving you outers the chance to give an explanation.. I wonder why.

Once again:

"Can some of you outers answer this, If we want to sell into the EU from outside how do we not abide by their free movement of Labour rules?"

stan i've replied to your empty screamings of 'will someone
answer the question that if we want to sell into the EU, we'l
have to except free movement of labour'

I've answered that already but its abvious you only read and
take in what you want..

But i'l say again......

Turkey sells into the EU, they DON'T have free movement of
labour, although they would like to because it would be in their
favour, being a low income country, so does the Ukraine and several others...

It is only European countries that abide with the free movement criteria for trade. The US doesn't, Canada doesn't, China doesn't, Russia doesn't, Japan doesn't, Australia doesn't, Israel doesn't and not do the rest of the world. They all trade with the EU.

Stan must have you all filtered, he still doesent get this non free movement business.

That does not imply free trade. None of them have free trade. They either have individual agreements or operate under WTO rules. In all cases it implies tariffs. Some are low and some high. It varies by product as well. In cases where the EU wants to protect a particular product or commodity the tariffs are high or have an upper limit on volume.

Grannyboy

Kettle/pot re Stan questions

There is a reason Turkey has a special arrangement. It will not apply to UK if we leave.
We've been over this. The UK outside EU is not the same as Turkey.
Go Goggle Turkey/EU trade. Don't repeat the same thing over and over.

Haystack

Yes US, China etc does have limit eu access. In US case we buy their planes they buy ours. No free movement to USA required simply because we get to sell them Airbuses.
Limited access also for China. Canada as you know has a negotiated trade deal. No free movement to Canada required because EU gets to sell into Canada some items in return for allowing them to sell us a limited range of items.

But if we want to operate inside the EU single market with blanket access we have to follow their rules.

There are 3 proposals put up by Outers for us to trade into the EU
a Norway model
b Canada
c WTO
all have to be negotiated and have costs.
Do you know of any other?

The reason we are in a single market is because we abide by the single market rules that includes free movement.

Unlike the UK. None of the countries you mention have 40% of their sales into the EU.
No doubt we can negotiate sales to the EU but how? if not a, b, c above.

The leavers have not been able to say how we will sell as much as we do into Europe after we leave.

Outside countries can sell products into EU that the EU does not have but which it needs. Outside countries do not freely sell into EU, products that the EU has readily available or made by EU members. EU protects it's market big time.

Just ask EU workers/politicians if they will allow UK free access for UK products.
EU takes iphones from US because EU can't make them. No free movement of labour into US required by EU. The UK will not get that deal unless it is for some item EU can't get elsewhere..

You leavers will have to come up with how you expect us to trade with the EU in the volume we currently do. We need the EU more than they need us.

And before you bang on again about Germany will still want to sell us cars and France sell us wine ..of course they will and we will take it all because we want it. They only want our stuff if we stay in or via a,b,or c above. Maybe we can negotiate a deal without free movement but I doubt it.

If we say " we will not take your Airbus planes because you will not take our Hondas" We lose simply because we buy more from them than they do from us. As soon as we put on tariffs they put on theirs.

The country that sells the least is always the loser in tariff wars

Hays

Sorry, cross post. You said it better than I

The fact is that new trade agreements have to be agreed within two years once Article 50 has been invoked. It would make good sense to only invoke Article 50 once a new Tory leadership was in place and a comprehensive exit strategy formed with agreement of a new Brexit cabinet. Show the door to those with no commitment to the strategy.
The trade agreements could be on the basis of free movement but, given the immigration pressure, are much more likely to be on a work permit basis, with the right to indefinite stay for those already living and working in the UK. That would be reciprocal to those living and working in the EU. My opinion for what it is worth.

And please don't compare the UK to Norway. It is the 5th largest economy in the world and despite the cuts, the strongest military in the EU.
Herr Juncker in comparison has managed to get sacked from tiny Luxembourg. The UK is big enough to work out its own model. And the bureaucrats in the EU know that. You can expect a lot of puffed out chests and gestulations but thats what they do. They can safely be ignored as irrelevant. As usual only Germany, with France sloping behind, will be relevant to the discussion.

i certainly can't prove it, but both france and germany (in particular) would be very worried indeed if uk looked likely to vote "out", though they will blather they really don't care and that it will be uk's loss

their fear will not be so much uk's exit, as the impetus it will give to the rising clamour of other disaffected people in other member states, and the extra instability that will breed

Brussels thrown into chaos as Dutch people plan SECOND referendum on hated trade deal.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/661506/Dutch-referendum-EU-referendum-TTIP-trade-deal-Brexit?ref=yfp