This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Just another small point on this (to stir it up a bit).
Which was the better place to live (for all peoples); Rhodesia under Robert Smith or Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe?

We seemed to have concentrated on only one of the questions posed.

I still would like to read views on rendition and whether as the result of the invasion of Iraq we are safer from terrorism or in greater peril.

Is Iraq a training ground for other places ie America, Britain etc at a later date.

Will the middle East inflate oil prices over the coming years in an attempt to disrupt the World Economies.


Was the invasion of Afghanistan a success and is the placement of British troops there in the aftermath of the American policy a good idea.

I would like to write I have nothing against the American people, the
French, Spanish or even the English people and through my travels (fairly limited compared with many on this board) found the values in general to be similar.

However, I do have antagonism to many acts of the administration of those countries which are done in the name of their people.

Alan - i dont claim too know much about India or our history there as part of the BE. I just know our human rights issues left a lot to be desired. For examle you say we helped build Railways, how was this done???

On a seperate point, its a pleasure to debate with you because we disagree on most points on this thread apart from the US, but we have not resorted insults and have tried to justify what we believe with reasonable argument. Its would be nice if some of the others could do the same. apart from fred of course.

I am afraid Fred, that in my opinion, for what its worth, Terrorism is a fact of life and will continue to be so, regardless of how the countries you mentioned act. There can be no negotiation with any terrorists. There is a way of life to defend, and a freedom at stake.
The peoples of Indonesia can hardly blame their government for the atrocities visited on them by terrorists, and Australia had a very narrow squeek recently.
To my mind, Iraq and Afghanistan are simply reasons that the terrorists can pin their claims on and I really do think had they not happened, then another "reason" would be found.
People have preached hatred against the west for millenia. This has not changed due to recent global events.
What has changed are the abilities of the terrorists to communicate and plan more effectively and covertly, and to have access to more destructive capabilities than ever before. This is why the world has seen a sea change in our attitudes towards terrorists who are getting more and more desperate. This is why the world is less safe than ever before.
Unfortunately, I think the ante will be cranked up, with greater atrocities having to be met by greater retaliation until, as history teaches us, the terrorists will cease due to dwindling support and a certain knowledge that they are not untouchable. they will be caught and (hopefully) feel the might of a full and just legal retribution.
Alan

Agreed Kivver. And I must admit I have little knowledge of the Indian Railways and how they were constructed.
I was fortunate enough to work in the Middle East for a while and it was a very racially mixed area. I was worried about the rest of the worlds view on The Uk and colonialism and how they would react to me, but was astonished to find that the huge majority of ex-colonial ex-pats there, from Asia, Arabia and Africa, were of the opinion that we had actually left them in a good state with huge improvements to their lives and economy and their own leaders had let them down by mis-management and squandering! This was the exact opposite of what I was taught in school.
Would you believe that some black Africans went as far as to say they would welcome colonial rule back, even if it meant Apartheid. I didn't take the last bit too seriously, but it was indicative of the general feeling from people who had realised there were better opportunities than their country could offer them.
I also got an entirely new perspective on racial and sexual equality, but thereby hangs another tale.
Alan

Kivver,
Just had a thought on human rights.
If you are saying that the record is appalling by todays standards, then you are probably right, but by the standards of the day, this may not be the case.
Many of the practices we now see as unnacceptable and almost sub human were (and still are in some countries) quite the norm then and nobody would dream of questioning them.
For instance, the slavery of the blacks in Africa is not so far removed from the workhouse and the apprenticeship system that was current in the UK. The terrible punishments meted out for minor crimes were no worse than those acceptable to her majestys navy for sailors who didn't toe the line.
The point is that the conditions were not based on some idea of inferiority due to colour or nationality, but were based on the master and servent ideal that was prevelent throughout the world.
To show that we have moved on dramatically, while other parts of the world have not, it may interest you to know that in some countries certain nationalities are paid superb wages while others are forced to live below the poverty line. Ones nationality also defines the kind of housing and schooling available. This is not a strange and backward land and the situation is not hidden away from view. It is actually endorsed by the government and its offices in the country concerned.
I don't think we have too much to be ashamed of on the human rights front.
Alan

Not sure that i liked the British Empire being showed as pink on the maps.

HEALTH WARNING
Reading Hewittalan6 posts can damage your health.

I'm a psychiatrist with an office here in Shatwell.Some of you seem rather angry and would benefit from my counselling.I think there are certain issues here needing to be challenged.

Holbeg ,that's very nice of you but we have our own psychiatrist on moneyam ,,Bosley has his own counselling thread.

You have got to be mad to be a psychiatrist in Shatwell, by the way have you paid Moneyam to advertise for clients here ?

Hobleg

That is the very point. The issues here are very challenging.

Keep taking the tablets!

Nam

War what War?

Looks like my missus has been doing the map reading again.
200 miles form where they should be.
Alan

Hobleg, you don't have to be ashamed of yourself because you are a psychiatrist and if you wish you can use this thread for your confessions. A little abreaction is good for you.

aldwickk- where did you get that pic of me just after i started reading your posts?

Alan - some good points. I think Britain must have one of highest human rights record in the world now. One of the reasons i was happy the government didnt get this holding people in custody for 90 days that could have taken us back a bit.

MM made me laugh when he called India the biggest democracy in the world. He has obviously never read about an Indian race they call the 'untouchables', i'd like him to ask them about democracy. Blinger also made the point that billions of people want to come to country which is true but forgot to say more and more brits want to get away from it. I recently had to spend 5 weeks in an Itailian Hospital and it was brilliant.

How did the Italians treat you?
I have been fortunate to travel widely and have almost always found my nationality was treated with courtesy and respect, particularly in the Arab world. The only time I have been shown any disrespect, due to being British, was in Crete of all places, in 1983, which was, I was told later, how the local youths reacted to foreigners who appeared rich to them. I was not rich of course, I was a young lad getting drunk every night, but they simply saw me spending more on booze in a night than they earned in a month.
Perhaps, on another level, this is partly what fuels the dischord between nations.
Alan

Kivver You said "Alan - i dont claim too know much about India or our history there as part of the BE. I just know our human rights issues left a lot to be desired. For examle you say we helped build Railways, how was this done???"

What puzzles me is how you can claim to know that our human rights record in INdia left much to be desired when you, on the other hand, say that you do not know much about our history there.

For the record, the Indian Railways were largely built by Scottish engineers who came from the Glasgow engineering college which I attended. It became the *Royal* College of Science and Technology after George V's Durbar, when he kept meeting Scottish engineers on the railways there. RCST is now the University of Strathclyde.

MM

This is an eduction [ did i spell that right ] this thread .

Thanks for that MM. I could catch the hint of "were the railways built using slave labour?" but I had no idea on the answer.
I have never been to India, but in southern Sri Lanka, they are very proud of their colonial past, and preserve many fine buildings and traditions from the era. Much of their current economy is built around the industries created and then abandoned by the empire.
Alan