Ref. 9358, I've got it sorted.

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Hils

To help you get your statistics, have a look at this site:

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php

I had the BT man round just before Christmas. He plugged my router into the main socket to make a connection and then disconnected the other phone extensions from the back of it to show me that it was other telephone extension lines in the house that were causing me a problem.

We then fitted a BT ADSL Adaptor Front Plate to the main socket and fed the router direct from that.

See http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate.htm

Ta Doc,

They've already had us replace the micro-filters, plus we've taken the socket apart and plugged straight into the back of it, and they've also updated the router firmware remotely. My attenuation is currently 18.5/10.6 db which seems OK from what I've read.

Presumably I need to check the attenuation again the next time that it drops connection?

I've carried on reading ....

My Noise Margin is 9.6/8.0 db which is described as "fair but does not leave much room for variances in conditions". I wonder if this might be causing the problem.

Would this low value be as a result of a poor line? Would a new router improve this figure?

And did you get any improvements from the doing of all that?

The faceplate thingummy is a neater way of permanently doing the equivalent of "plus we've taken the socket apart and plugged straight into the back of it".

If everything checks out OK, I am wondering if you might have got a contention issue?

I often wonder too, if some exchange engineer is 'switching everyone off' to 'switch a new customer on', sorta kinda.....?

Plugging into the back of the socket made no difference whatsoever, Doc. It was simply one of the tests that the Sky chappie in Bangalore insisted that we do before he'd transfer me to his supervisor.

For the moment, I've downloaded this gizmo so that we've got a log of performance over the next couple of days. I'll then speak to Sky again.

It would be interesting though to find out what others think about the noise margin, and whether they feel it's too low and if they feel a new router might improve it, or whether I need to be badgering Sky into doing something about the line quality.

Hils If you interrogate yr router. the statistics page will give you line attenuation and noise margins. The most important are noise margins. My router has noise margins of 10.5 upstream and downstream and I have no wifi problems.

192.168.0.1 for access and default Sky user name is admin and password is sky

Hope this helps

Bob

Hil,

For the life of me, I can't see what the broadband line noise margin has to do with WiFi connections dropping.

The broadband connection may be eractic, but the WiFi should remain connected - i.e., the device to router connection should not be affected, even if the broadband (Internet) connection drops.

There *may* be a router problem - although I use a Netgear DG834g ADSL modem and have no trouble with wireless.

Have you checked which channel you/your immediate neighbours are using?

With 802.11 G, there are actually only three non-overlapping chunks of spectrum - channels 1, 6, and 11.

At the extremities of coverage, it helps if you're not using the same channel as your neighbour.

There's more - lots more - but let me see if I'm on the right track first.

Delboy

Thanks, Bob, but I managed to find the stats link on the router homepage earlier today after Doc posted. I hadn't been able to see it for looking previously.

The problem with using the router homepage though is that it polls a refresh at regular intervals, but doesn't save the results. The utility I posted in 9365 not only saves the results, but also calculates an average value and also plots graphs to show when spikes occur. From that I should be able to check back and monitor the noise margins at the precise times that my kids call out to say that their netbook or iPad or Blackberry or whatever mobile device has lost its internet connection.

I'd still like to know from one of the resident experts though if they think changing the router will improve the noise margins (which are currently averaging 9.4/7.7 db) or if I need to badger Sky into getting an engineer out to check the line.

I agree with MM. My broadband connection has been varying of late, but the WiFi connection remain pretty solid. That is except in certain places where it has always been erratic. This seems to be more to do with various solid walls and 'dead' reception areas. I know that microwaves cooker, cordless phones and even mobile phones can interfere with WiFi.

There is quite a bit of evidence that the new energy saving light bulbs can kill WiFi connection quality.

If you really get desperate then try this!

http://www.j-walk.com/other/wifispray/index.htm

Ta DelBoy,

We switched router channels at the weekend and also switched to G only from B & G. I suspect that may be academic though, as my son said that his wireless card only ever picks up a signal from one of our neighbours, and he was unable to detect that signal at all when we were having problems this weekend.

Haystack,

My son's room is directly above the router, so we're confident that reception should be OK. I've just ordered a case of WiFi spray anyway though, to be on the safe side.

:o)

Hil,

Yep, good move to switch to G only - if any B devices use a B+G access, all connections to that access point degrade to B. If all your gadgets are of relatively recent vintage (< 5 years old) they will support G.

Remember that WiFi signals don't pass through anything bigger than their wavelength which is about 12.5 cm. So, opening a door to a room can make a big difference, otherwise the WiFi relies on ducting through interfloor cavities and so on.

Tell your kids to leave their bedroom doors open for better WiFi. ;-)

Hil,

I should have expanded on the above - WiFi depends on reflected signals bouncing off stuff (think Radar) and through apertures. Think of each solid object as a mirror for radio waves, and you've more or less got the physics.

DelBoy,

Since I started logging the router stats yesterday, there have been a couple of issues.

The downstream noise margin has stayed pretty constant between 9.4 overnight and 9.6 during the day and there haven't been any spikes.

The upstream noise margin has spiked down to zero a couple of times though and, on both of these occasions, connection has been lost. Although the spike has only lasted for a few seconds and machines hard-wired into the router have re-connected straight away, it's taken around 5 minutes or more for wireless devices to re-connect. It seems as though the router is struggling to re-assign an IP address to the wireless devices following the spike.

The other thing that I didn't say yesterday was that Sky have claimed we have had 100% uptime since I can't remember when. As I say, the noise margin spikes are only occurring upstream, so would this explain Sky's 100% uptime assertion?

Any thoughts, in particular as to whether it's a router problem or a line problem?

After years of having wi-fi problems on and off with various routers and signal extenders finally pretty much ditched wi-fi last year for the power line products from devolo and they are wonderful. Not the slightest problem and much faster connection than ever got with wi-fi. For places where really need wi-fi can plug a wi-fi transmitter into the socket and get a much better wi-fi connection than got with old wi-fi extender.

Hil's to answer your question about will a new router improve your noise margin, the answer is possibly if you buy a quality one but it will only make a very small difference, the noise margin is related to the ISP connection and has nothing to do with Wi-Fi performance.

Re Wi-Fi, better routers are better, for home market Draytek and Cisco (linksys) are good, I have just changed a router/modem provided by talktalk for a modem from draytek and a router from Cisco and the signal is far more reliable, If you go for new I recommend N class, some new routers will support 2.4 and 5 Ghz and some will do that simultaneously, as 5Ghz is far less used this can have some advantages if your in a Wi-Fii congested area although for reasons that Derek discussed above the propagation and range of 5Ghz is different and so this does not automatically mean greater range or signal strength.

You can also consider having 2 routers with one acting only as an access point to extend coverage.

hils,

Like Isaacs I also swear by those power line products.

I have WiFi coming from my router but both my PC and my wife's laptop get their internet from the Devolos. The WiFi is handy for my iPhone and iPad - but I'd never use it for the computers.

TP

Isaacs, Spacie, TP,

Thanks for those suggestions - I'll bear them in mind. At the moment, I'm psyching myself up for another ear-bending session with Sky tomorrow, as we try to fathom out whether it's a line problem or a problem with the router.

What I find confusing is that DelBoy suggests that he doesn't see why a poor noise margin would cause mobile devices to lose connection because that shouldn't affect the LAN and I understand and agree with what he's saying, but others on different broadband forums seem to be saying the opposite in that changing the router can improve noise margin and prevent the dropped connections.

Also, if the noise margin is low and that is indeed the root cause of the dropped connections, I would've thought that, being a line problem, it's something Sky should be addressing rather than just trying to fob me off by saying "You've had 100% uptime for the last n months so it's not our problem. You need to change your router".

Hil,

Let me try to add more confusion clarify a bit.

If the Internet connection drops out for any reason - unplugged from the router even - only the WAN connection through the modem to the Internet is affected. At least with the Netgear router you have - others may be different, but I really don't believe so.

The bit with the WiFi and the Ethernet sockets is just an Ethernet switch with a DHCP server and a wireless access point. The WiFi should continue transmitting and receiving, the DHCP server should not reassign addresses - it's already assigned them - UNLESS the router is reset or power-cycled.