Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/10/operation-save-theresa-eu-considers-redrawing-michel-barniers/

Jacob Rees-Mogg: "We say NO to squandering tax payers money"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5vqka0axuE

During a passionate speech in the Commons on Monday, 10th September, the European Research Group (ERG) chairman reminded British politicians that they do not “owe” the European Union any money for Brexit.

In a debate in the Commons on legislating for the Withdrawal Agreement, Mr Rees-Mogg referenced a report produced by the House of Lords' EU Committee and said: “The case that was explained in this very powerful document was, if we leave under the terms of Article 50 without a withdrawal agreement, we owe no money.”

The prominent Brexiteer said politicians “must say no” to a bad Brexit deal that would waste British taxpayers’ money.

Mr Rees-Mogg told MPs: “The reason for this is that our obligation to pay any money would in normal circumstances depend upon the Vienna Convention on Treaties until 1968.

“And if we left under those terms without anything in the Lisbon Treaty or other EU treaties we would indeed be liable for our share of the liabilities.

“But that convention says that if the treaty of the organisation to which you belong makes a different provision for leaving then that provision is authoritative.

“And then you go back to Article 50 and the provision of Article 50 is that if you leave after two years without deal then that is it. There is no financial provision at all.

“The £40billion we are talking about, of our constituents’ money, of money that could be spent on other pressing needs and every member of this House could identify pressing need in their own constituency or for their own constituents or for the nation at large – that £40billion is not a legal obligation – it is a charitable donation unless it comes with a very clear quid quo pro.”

MPs could be heard chuckling as Mr Rees-Mogg added: “We had a report last week that we are going to have a 10 page document of a political agreement saying motherhood and apple pies all fine and dandy - that would be £4billion a page for waffle.

“You may like waffles, you may prefer Belgian waffles, but £4billion a page for waffle is not something I think any responsible member of Parliament could vote for.

“What after all is the job and power of this House? Who do we control the executive? It has always been by the provision of money.

“If the executive wishes to waste British taxpayers’ money, we must say no.”

Mr Rees-Mogg concluded by saying MPs should say “yes to people who are living here and generous” but “say no to being a vassal state” and “no squandering taxpayers’ money’.

Prime Minister Theresa May’s Brexit plan, calling for close regulatory alignment with the EU’s single market for British exports, has faced scrutiny from both Brexiteers and Remainers.

The proposal includes plans to create a ”common rule book” – involving a free trade area with the EU on industrial and agricultural goods.

The Brexit plan has been heavily criticised by former Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson since the Tory MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip resigned over the agreement in July.

On Sunday, Boris Johnson wrote that Mrs May was wrapping a “suicide vest” around a “great British Brexit”.

But Mrs May has so far vowed to stick by her controversial Brexit blueprint.

The EU’s chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has previously rejected Mrs May’s plans and ruled out any special economic relationship with the UK – claiming it would unravel the entire “European project”.

But in a shock u-turn, Mr Barnier told a forum in Slovenia on Monday it is "realistic" to expect a divorce deal with Britain in six to eight weeks – suggesting the divorce could be settled by the week beginning October 15 – just in time for the EU Summit on October 18.

The EU chief negotiator said: "I think that if we are realistic we are able to reach an agreement on the first stage of the negotiation, which is the Brexit treaty, within 6 or 8 weeks.

"Taking into account the time necessary for the ratification process, the House of Commons on one side, the European Parliament and the Council on the other side… We must reach an agreement before the beginning of November. I think it is possible."

Barny can think what he likes but the current proposal won't get agreed by Parliament anyway.

He's running scared now and probably getting pressure put on him not to lose our 40 billion hand out.

EU falling apart , Poland and Hungary breaking any rules they want to and the EU can do nothing about it.

Something for Dil and Manuel to celebrate.

We've bought a bigger, shinier one Fred. That was given to "car crash" Barry Gardiner.

Were you driving the one above?

We have just got to get through to December.......then there is no time to reverse anything.

TM will be left in power until late November, once that milestone is achieved nobody (not even a general election) can stop Brexit as regulatory periods are too long to get anything legally changed and approved.

Leadership challenge in late Nov or early Dec..........but until then everyone in the Tory party will back TM as they just need her to stay there for a couple more months.

Appealing to London property owners.

Oh no not another housing price crash like the one predicted by remoaners for June 2016 if we voted out.

Remoaners getting desperate now.



193 days to go , tick tock.

Don't knock barmy Carney he has a 100% record for forecasting-------he has been totally wrong on everything.

Lol

Courtesy of the BBC....

Your guide to Brexit jargon

Brexit
Short for Britain exiting the European Union

Brexit bus
Refers to a bus hired by the Leave campaign in the run-up to the European Union referendum. On its side was a slogan that became one of the most controversial of the campaign and was credited by some with swinging the result: "We send the EU £350m a week. Let's fund our NHS instead. Vote Leave."

Hard Brexit
This phrase is often used by critics of Brexit who think it will harm the UK economy. A hard Brexit would be one where few of the existing ties between the UK and the EU were retained leading to more disruption than a Soft Brexit.

Soft Brexit
Leaving the European Union but staying as closely aligned to the EU as possible. It could keep the UK in the single market or the customs union or both. It could involve British compromises on free movement of people, allowing European Union citizens rights to settle in the UK with access to public services and benefits.

Chequers plan
A plan for Brexit which was agreed by the Cabinet at the Prime Minister’s country residence, Chequers, on 6 July 2018. It includes: a “common rulebook” for all goods traded with the EU and a “facilitated customs arrangement” which aims to maintain frictionless trade in goods between the UK and the EU whilst allowing Britain to develop an independent trade policy with the rest of the world. The plan would end free movement of people.

No deal
Britain leaving the European Union with no formal agreement on the terms of UK’s withdrawal or future trade relations.

Customs partnership
This proposal, also known as the hybrid model, would enable trade in goods between the UK and Europe without the need for customs checks. Proponents say it would help solve the Irish border question too, as the UK would collect the EU's tariffs on goods coming from other countries on the EU's behalf. If those goods stayed in the UK and UK tariffs were lower, companies could then claim back the difference.

Norway model
An arrangement in which the UK would have to allow freedom of movement of people, make a contribution to the EU budget - smaller than it currently makes - and abide by many of the EU's rules, in exchange for remaining in the single market.

Canada model
Refers to a free-trade agreement between the EU and Canada which removes lots of barriers to trade between the two, but not as many as the Norway model – which involves signing up to more EU rules, contributing to the EU budget and allowing the free movement of people.

Backstop plan
Effectively an insurance policy to avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland, if appropriate customs arrangements cannot be agreed by the EU and UK in time for the end of the transition period in December 2020. The EU believes the backstop should mean Northern Ireland effectively staying in the single market for goods and the customs union until the UK comes up with solution to the border issue. Theresa May wants a backstop that would see the whole of the UK staying in the customs union for a limited period of time after the transition period – something the EU has said is unacceptable.

Divergence
Allowing rules and regulations to differ between the European Union and the UK after Brexit.

Why is Britain leaving the European Union?
A referendum - a vote in which everyone (or nearly everyone) of voting age can take part - was held on Thursday 23 June, 2016, to decide whether the UK should leave or remain in the European Union. Leave won by 51.9% to 48.1%. The referendum turnout was 71.8%, with more than 30 million people voting.

What was the breakdown across the UK?
England voted for Brexit, by 53.4% to 46.6%. Wales also voted for Brexit, with Leave getting 52.5% of the vote and Remain 47.5%. Scotland and Northern Ireland both backed staying in the EU. Scotland backed Remain by 62% to 38%, while 55.8% in Northern Ireland voted Remain and 44.2% Leave. See the results in more detail.

What is the European Union?
The European Union - often known as the EU - is an economic and political partnership involving 28 European countries. It began after World War Two to foster economic co-operation, with the idea that countries which trade together were more likely to avoid going to war with each other.

The Single Market
It has since grown to become a "single market" allowing goods and people to move around, basically as if the member states were one country. It has its own currency, the Euro, which is used by 19 of the member countries, its own parliament and it now sets rules in a wide range of areas - including on the environment, transport, consumer rights and even things such as mobile phone charges.

When is the UK due to leave the EU?
For the UK to leave the EU it had to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which gives the two sides two years to agree the terms of the split. Theresa May triggered this process on 29 March, meaning the UK is scheduled to leave at 11pm UK time on Friday, 29 March 2019. It can be extended if all 28 EU members agree, but at the moment all sides are focusing on that date as being the key one, and Theresa May has now put it into British law.

So is Brexit definitely happening?
The UK government and the main UK opposition party both say Brexit will happen. There are some groups campaigning for Brexit to be halted, but the focus among the UK's elected politicians has been on what relationship the UK has with the EU after Brexit, rather than whether Brexit will happen at all. Nothing is ever certain, but as things stand Britain is leaving the European Union. There is more detail on the possible hurdles further down this guide...

What's happening now?
The UK and EU have provisionally agreed on the three "divorce" issues of how much the UK owes the EU, what happens to the Northern Ireland border and what happens to UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU and EU citizens living in the UK. Talks are now focusing on the detail of those issues - there is yet to be agreement on how to avoid having a physical Northern Ireland border - and on future relations. To buy more time, the two sides have agreed on a 21-month "transition" period to smooth the way to post-Brexit relations. The UK cabinet has agreed how it sees those future relations working and will now be seeing if the EU agrees.

What is the 'transition' period?
It refers to a period of time after 29 March, 2019, to 31 December, 2020, to get everything in place and allow businesses and others to prepare for the moment when the new post-Brexit rules between the UK and the EU begin. It also allows more time for the details of the new relationship to be fully hammered out. Free movement will continue during the transition period, as the EU wanted. The UK will be able to strike its own trade deals - although they won't be able to come into force until 1 January 2021.

Do we know how things will work in the long-term?
No. Negotiations about future relations between the UK and the EU are taking place now. Both sides hope they can agree by October on the outline of future relations on things like trade, travel and security. If all goes to plan this deal could then be given the go ahead by both sides in time for 29 March 2019. Theresa May delivered a big speech setting out her thoughts on the UK and EU's future relations on 2 March, 2018.

Most of the above was poached from:

Brexit: All you need to know about the UK leaving the EU where there is even more to read, learn and inwardly digest. eg.:

What is Article 50?
Article 50 is a plan for any country that wishes to exit the EU to do so. It was created as part of the Treaty of Lisbon - an agreement signed up to by all EU states which became law in 2009. Before that treaty, there was no formal mechanism for a country to leave the EU.

It's pretty short - just five paragraphs - which spell out that any EU member state may decide to quit the EU, that it must notify the European Council and negotiate its withdrawal with the EU, that there are two years to reach an agreement - unless everyone agrees to extend it - and that the exiting state cannot take part in EU internal discussions about its departure.

What's going to happen to all the EU laws in force in the UK?
The Conservative government introduced the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill to Parliament to end the primacy of EU law in the UK on Brexit Day. This "Great Repeal Bill", as it was originally called, incorporates all EU legislation into UK law in one lump, after which the government will decide over a period of time which parts to keep, change or remove. The bill was subject to fierce debate as it passed through Parliament, with a number of attempts to change its wording. It finally became law in June 2018.

What is the Labour Party's position on Brexit?
Labour says it accepts the referendum result and that Brexit is going to happen. Leader Jeremy Corbyn says he would negotiate a permanent customs union with the EU after Brexit, which would be very similar to the one it has now. This is the only way to keep trade flowing freely and protect jobs, he says, as well as ensuring there is no return to a "hard border" in Northern Ireland. He has ruled out staying a member of the single market, as some of his pro-EU MPs want, so he can carry out his plans to nationalise key industries without being hampered by EU competition rules. He says the UK should have a very close relationship with the single market. Labour accepts that some form of free movement of people might have to continue. He also insists he could persuade Brussels to let the UK have a say in its rules post-Brexit.

What is the single market?
The single market is seen by its advocates as the EU's biggest achievement and one of the main reasons it was set up in the first place. Britain was a member of a free trade area in Europe before it joined what was then known as the common market. In a free trade area countries can trade with each other without paying tariffs - but it is not a single market because the member states do not have to merge their economies together.

The European Union single market, which was completed in 1992, allows the free movement of goods, services, money and people within the European Union, as if it was a single country. It is possible to set up a business or take a job anywhere within it. The idea was to boost trade, create jobs and lower prices. But it requires common law-making to ensure products are made to the same technical standards and imposes other rules to ensure a "level playing field".

Critics say it generates too many petty regulations and robs members of control over their own affairs. Mass migration from poorer to richer countries has also raised questions about the free movement rule. Theresa May has ruled out the UK staying in the single market, a position backed by Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

What's the difference between the single market and the customs union?
The customs union ensures EU member states all charge the same import duties to countries outside the EU. It allows member states to trade freely with each other, without burdensome customs checks at borders, but it limits their freedom to strike their own trade deals.

It is different from a free trade area. In a free trade area no tariffs, taxes or quotas are charged on goods and services moving within the area but members are free to strike their own external trade deals.

The government says the UK is leaving the customs union after the transition period but ministers have yet to decide on what will replace it amid divisions in cabinet over the two options - a customs partnership and a technology based "maximum facilitation" arrangement.

Who is negotiating Britain's exit from the EU?
Theresa May set up a government department, headed by veteran Conservative MP and Leave campaigner David Davis, to take responsibility for Brexit talks. Former defence secretary, Liam Fox, who also campaigned to leave the EU, was given the new job of international trade secretary and Boris Johnson, who was a leader of the official Leave campaign, is foreign secretary. These three were each playing roles in negotiations with the EU. However that has all changed now, with Boris Johnson and David Davis resigning over Theresa May's preferred Brexit plan. Dominic Raab is the new Brexit secretary and Jeremy Hunt is foreign secretary. But Mrs May has made clear that she is in charge of the negotiations. Who's who guide to both sides' negotiators.

How long will it take for Britain to leave the EU?
The Article 50 process lasts two years so the intention is for the UK to leave the EU on 29 March 2019. EU law still stands in the UK until it ceases being a member. But as things stand there will not be a final break on that day as the two sides have agreed to a 21-month transition period to allow a smooth implementation of whatever Brexit deal is negotiated and minimise disruption to businesses and holidaymakers etc.

Why might Brexit take so long?
Unpicking 43 years of treaties and agreements covering thousands of different subjects was never going to be a straightforward task. It is further complicated by the fact that it has never been done before and negotiators are, to some extent, making it up as they go along. The post-Brexit trade deal is likely to be the most complex part of the negotiation because it needs the unanimous approval of more than 30 national and regional parliaments across Europe, some of whom may want to hold referendums.

So why can't the UK just cut all ties in March 2019?
The UK could cut all ties, but Theresa May and others would like to avoid such a "cliff-edge" where current regulations on things like cross-border trade and travel between the UK and the EU ends overnight. They think it would harm the economy.

What happens if there is no deal with the EU?
Without an agreement on trade, the UK would operate with the EU under World Trade Organisation rules, which could mean customs checks and tariffs on goods as well as longer border checks for travellers.

There are also questions about what would happen to Britain's position as a global financial centre and the land border between the UK and the Republic of Ireland. There is also concern that Brits living abroad in the EU could lose residency rights and access to free emergency health care. Here is a collection of papers published by the government on a 'no-deal'

What happens to EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens in the EU?
An agreement between the UK and the EU provides what Theresa May says is certainty to the 3.2 million EU citizens in the UK - as well as citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland that they will be able to carry on living and working in the UK as they have done with their rights enshrined in UK law and enforced by British courts. UK citizens in the EU will also retain their current rights with what the EU's Jean-Claude Juncker called a cheap and simple administration procedure.

The proposal provides a cut-off date of Brexit day - 29 March 2019 - for those to be covered by the rules. Babies born after that date to people who have qualified under these rules will be included in the agreement. Under the plan EU citizens legally resident in the UK and UK citizens in the EU will be able to leave for up to five years before losing the rights they will have as part of the proposed Brexit deal.

Healthcare rights will continue as now although it is not clear yet what status an EHIC card would have for other travellers after Brexit. For the full details please see the UK-EU agreement. As with all other aspects of Brexit, this agreement would only come into force if and when the UK and the EU agree on an overall Brexit deal.

How will EU citizens apply for the new status?
UK government ministers say there will be an online system - similar to one used to renew driving licences - that will take minutes to complete with a fee similar to getting a passport, which is about £72. Read more details here: UK unveils EU citizen registration plan

Will EU nationals have to leave the UK if there's no deal?
We don't yet know what it would mean for recent arrivals, but it's worth saying that even if no Brexit deal was done, EU nationals with a right to permanent residence, which is granted after they have lived in the UK for five years, should not see their rights affected after Brexit.

What about EU nationals who want to work in the UK?
Any EU citizen already living and working in the UK will be able to carry on working and living in the UK after Brexit. The current plan is that even after Brexit, people from the EU will be able to move to work in the UK during a "transition" phase of about two years. There is also some debate over whether they will have the same rights as those who came before, with possible restrictions on access to benefits or to vote in local elections. The EU wants them to have the same rights as now - the UK doesn't.

What happens after the transition period has yet to be decided, although it is widely expected that there will be a work permit system along the lines of that for non-EU nationals.

Will MPs get a vote on the final Brexit deal?
Yes. Theresa May has promised there will be a Commons and Lords vote to approve whatever deal the UK and the rest of the EU agree at the end of the two year process. This vote was proposed as a "take it or leave it" one, after the deal was done.

But Mrs May suffered her first defeat as PM in December 2017 when enough Tory rebels joined with opposition parties to back an amendment to the EU Withdrawal Bill which puts into law the fact that any Brexit deal can only become law if MPs have voted for it.

So could MPs block Brexit?
In theory, yes, but the EU side would need to agree too. The referendum result is not legally binding and the withdrawal agreement also has to be ratified by Parliament. But the UK has triggered the automatic process of leaving the EU.

MPs could vote against the exit deal between the UK and EU. This would mean the UK would be on track to leave without a deal, rather than halting the process. Some anti-Brexit MPs believe that if that happens, they could then persuade enough of their colleagues to back a second referendum.

Will I need a visa to travel to the EU?
The UK government wants to keep visa-free travel to the UK for EU visitors after Brexit and it is hoping this will be reciprocated, meaning UK citizens will continue to be able to visit EU countries for short periods without seeking official permission to travel.

If visitors from EU countries wanted to work, study or settle in the UK they would have to apply for permission under the proposals.

No agreement has been reached yet, however. If it is decided that EU citizens will need visas to come to the UK in the future, then UK citizens will need visas to travel to the EU.

This stuff came from the Guardian:

Why is Ireland such a difficult issue in Brexit talks?
Barring a few high-profile interventions from two former prime ministers, Sir John Major and Tony Blair, Ireland was not the main issue in the EU referendum campaign. Yet the status of the 310-mile border is now the biggest stumbling block to a Brexit deal.

The EU and UK have pledged to avoid a hard border, including any infrastructure that could become a target for militants, in order to preserve the Good Friday agreement. But there has been little progress on how to avoid a border, since an initial agreement was struck in December 2017. Without an accord on Ireland, the EU has said there can be no Brexit divorce treaty. According to the EU logic of Brexit sequencing, without a withdrawal agreement, there can be no transition period or trade agreement between the UK and its European neighbours.

What is the EU plan?
Brussels wants guarantees it will be able to control goods flowing over the EU-UK border after Brexit. Without any controls, officials fear that it will be impossible to prevent illegal imports, such as American chlorinated chickens, or cheating on VAT rates. As the EU and UK are not expected to conclude an agreement on their future trading relationship until 2020 at the earliest, the EU has come up with a fallback plan, known as the backstop. The backstop means Northern Ireland would remain subject to the EU customs union and many single market rules, creating “a common regulatory area” on the island of Ireland, where goods can move freely. Northern Ireland would have to apply EU tariffs on non-EU goods. It would follow EU rules on product safety, animal welfare and VAT. EU institutions, including the European court of justice, would retain their role in enforcing these rules.

What is the UK plan?
The UK has staunchly rejected the EU plan: no British prime minister “could ever agree” to the backstop, which threatens the constitutional integrity of the UK, Theresa May has said. The proposal is especially fraught for the prime minister, whose minority government is propped up by the Democratic Unionist party, which fiercely opposes separate status for Northern Ireland.

The UK wants to resolve the Irish question through an agreement on the future trading relationship. It argues that any fallback plan should apply to the whole of the UK and be time-limited, two points the EU refuses to accept. The UK has proposed two customs plans. The first, “maximum facilitation”, is based on technology and trusted-trader status for small businesses doing cross-border trade. The second is an unprecedented partnership that would allow the UK to collect tariffs on behalf of the EU. Both ideas have been rejected by the EU, but elements have been reincarnated in May’s Chequers plan.

What happens now?
The EU hopes to convince the UK that its backstop is not trampling on British sovereignty. This is Michel Barnier’s attempt to “dedramatise” the issue, partly by appealing to precedents – existing Northern Ireland-only rules on phytosanitary (plant health) norms, controls between Spain and the Canary Islands. Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, is also said to be looking at allowing British officials to check goods coming to Northern Ireland. Another EU idea is whether checks could be done at ports and airports away from the land border. But British officials are said to be unconvinced. To the British, the EU proposals still look like an “unacceptable” border in the Irish Sea.

EU leaders are likely to signal the importance of solving the Irish question when they discuss Brexit at a summit in Salzburg this week. But a solution remains elusive.

I am a British subject born in the UK as were my parents BUT my passport is endorsed stating I am not allowed to take up residency or employement in the EU.

With BREXIT at least it should be a level playing field for one and all born of british parents in the UK.


No DEAL is the best deal -

is being a subject the same as being being a citizen?
i'ld guess not and thus the nuance

cynic, Also a resident citizen, not only a subject but one that wants the privilaeges removed for all, and the only way is for BREXIT to mean BREXIT.

there must be something more than what you have divulged, as certainly someone born of english parents and in england assuredly has the right to work in eu