Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Yes V, a trading deal without the political strings.

Martini , come off it DVDs weren't invented when England won the RWC. You might be able to get one of the last they managed to get past the group stage though.

175 days to go Fred , keep smiling soon be there.

That's good to hear you say that , but as you also say Treez still there , the one who big time messed up the last election re introducing " Hunting " into the equation . She seems on another Planet unfortunately .

I just had an interesting conversation with someone who originally voted to stay in the EU.

He said, he wished "we should just leave now, and if there was another referendum he would vote leave, as we are a democracy and that was the decision of the people". He didn't care about what "may or may not" happen as "we could sort it all out afterwards" - this negotiation "rubbish" is just a waste of everyone's time and we should just leave and then negotiate afterwards.

i'm somewhat amused and bemused by the way so many on here deride TM and her negotiations with EU
none has any suggestion as to who might do a better job and of course the pull-up-the-drawbridge brigade display unbelievable naivety at best

Yes it is a load of bunkum , the whinging remoamers , the Companies putting out warnings if there's no deal , probably after sweeteners , do you see Aldi or Lidl putting out warnings , no , but here they are content to build more and more stores Nationwide . We've now got three here , and extending two of them . We need someone with a bit of GRUNT .

LW

Do you think somebody, who is wishing to commit suicide and was certain about the decision they made some time ago was the right one, based on a false interpretation of their understanding of their medical condition made some time ago, shouldn't be enlightened and given a chance to review the contemplated action?

It is a little like digging up a garden in winter without having seen it bloom in Summer.

-=-=-=-=-=
Man,

The problem with May is that she has to deal with her own conceit and attempted deception of those around her.

Also, other than the pro-brexit rabble in the tories and labour the only sensible MPS capable of taking in the totality of necessary negotiations into consideration are Remainers.

The likes of Ken and Dominic would do.

But who negotiating with the UK will trust them in the future.

Who cares Fred , 25 weeks today and it's party time.

I've been of the same view of the Brexit talks as lw's friend from the start. Just get out and and if they want a trade deal we'll see what we can do for them then.

Oh and while your at it Fred , how about we re run every general election held in the just hundred years as I'm sure there were misrepresentations made by the winning side before each one.

Biggest ones at the last election were by the losers , namely yes we support Brexit and we will write off student debt.

Have a great weekend Fred , have a trip to France or something before they ban us travelling there by plane , or that's what the remoaners are saying if we don't give them a deal.

Dil.

"Oh and while your at it Fred , how about we re run every general election held in the just hundred years as I'm sure there were misrepresentations made by the winning side before each one.


If you hadn't realised there is a chance to revise the results and actions of a General Election, at least every 5 years.

Seems common democratic sense to me.

Suggest you read the manifestos more carefully.


I think the "student debt" and "fees" are a perversion in a developed society.

But I guess they are to your taste.

And I suggest you go look at what Corby and co said.

When are we getting another Welsh referendum , that was closer than Brexit ?

FRED
as always, you start with the assumption that uk should remain within eu
like it or not, the referendum result said that uk should get out

inevitably, any agreement reached will be and always was going to be some sort of compromise wherein no side loses too much face and where both sides of the argument are not very happy


i happen to think that tm has done a pretty good job in more than trying circumstances

jc, standing on the sidelines, has said that if he and labour are voted into power, he'll back all and any horse that has at least 3 legs and can just about stand

suddenly juncker says that eu negotiations are progressing well
is he to be believed and will anyone decide to derail everything once more?
no one really knows until the fat lady sings, though i would refer you back to my previous post(s)

Manuel,

1) It is not a simple assumption or simple unthought out emotional reaction, but it is a thought-out belief that it is preferable that the UK and its population as a whole will be, or would be better off if we remain within the EU.
2) There was a referendum which resembled, for many, the buying a pig in a poke, and many of its voters were sold a pup.
3) I hoped prior to the referendum that the vote would have been to remain in the Union and that the issue regarding its membership would be put to bed and the problems that the tories had within its own party would be resolved.
4) Unfortunately, the question asked at the referendum did not point out what the problems of withdrawing from the Union would present the UK. If it had and the “people” understood the consequences of “exiting” their responses may have been different.
5) Many of those voting out were voting on “emotion” and reacting to the discomfort they were feeling, economic, personal austerity, racial irritations and having their wellbeing and social expectancies diminished.
6) They were also reacting to what the perceived as an “elitist” government and attempting to give its “betters” a bloody nose”.

-=-=-=-=-=
I posted shortly after the referendum and triggering of article 50. that I thought it was wrong and that any “deal”, new “agreements” or “contracts” to be signed should be put before the House of Parliament for scrutiny and before being ratified voted on by the people’s representatives.

Also, pointing out that the consequences of the “exit” to the living and social standards of the average person.

I also suggested that if we exited the “EU” the agreement in many parts would be a comprise or “fudge” with the UK bowing to the rules and regulations of the EU but no real influence or voting on those “powers”. I.E waiting at the table without any real say in drawing up the menu.

That is what appears to be on offer.
After due consideration, Parliament rejects the offerings I would think it appropriate to have a General Election and for the voters to decide on their future.

Democracy allows for the review of policies and is flexible to allow for a change of direction when circumstances are reviewed.

We used to hang some murderers and other villains. We no longer do so.

-=-=--=

As far as JC is concerned, I suggested at the time of the 2010 election that it would be a good election to lose and again thought the same in 2015 because of the “political confusion and austerity program” being provoked by Cameron and Osborne that it would be better to be an onlooker than taking the blame and responsibility for their legislation.

May’s excursion in general election was based on party political considerations and Corbyn was lucky enough to lose, but on narrower margin than expected.

Doing so, I think has allowed him to consolidate his position as the leader of the labour party and re-evaluate its future policies more pragmatically, as well as time to make them presentable after a calamitous period of tory misrule.

The attempts to smear him by some in the tory and his own party on Anti-Semitism has probably helped him to keep in the public eye and benefitted him. Many of the disgruntled labour party associates, who are vociferous in their criticism of him, are possibly influenced or disconcerted by their fall from grace within “their own” party. (Perhaps, as an afterthought they could join the left wing of the tories.)

Also, this period has given a chance for the Lib/Dem to review their policies and possible reasons for being. At the moment, not sure where they are aiming for.

In the opinion of many, T. May has shown herself to be incompetent of the job she voluntarily undertook to do, similarly to what she achieved when she was when she was working in the Home Office.

Unfortunately, there seems a general dearth to able politician and especially statesmen/women of political ability in National and International Politics at the moment.

Especially, those who do not show naked egocentric narcissism.

(Cynic, there may be a chance for you yet!)

8-)

PS,

What you seem to be accepting:

Someone had blunder’d:
Their’s not to make reply,
Their’s not to reason why,
Their’s but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.


Good luck!

jc has assuredly shown no signs of of being an "able politician" and even you are not singing his praises (for a change)

actually, one might say jc shows all the signs of being an able politician - more slippery than a barrel of eels - but none of leadership or decisiveness

Manuel,

You remind me of the phrase "fools rush in where angels fear to tread".

Cameron and Osborne rushed in without analysing the possible outcome of their actions.

If not, they were more self-delusional than others thought them or simply put, smug tory con artists.

T May picked up a poisoned chalice to deal without reckoning on the consequences to herself and the country based on false pride and vanity, like many of comrades.

She didn't have the "bottle" to analyse the problems she had but rushed into Article 50 decision, probably based on the timing of the next "forced" General Election. Hoping to have finished dealing with the EU problems.

Boris,?????

All of them dangerously inadequate and self-serving.

-=-=-=

I think I would prefer a person who is more cautious in his judgements and analyses the information rather than jumping to false conclusions.

Corbyn and the majority of MPs are having the information about the EU negotiations hidden from them, and what is being leaked about possible changes, change from one moment to another.

No wonder Corbyn is cautious. He is not as gullible as you seem to be.

I don't have to defend Corbyn, he appears to be his own man and not bought by the city or pimps in the Cayman Isles.

Again, I can see some of the difficulties of implementing many of his "policies" and doubt their practicalities and acceptability to the general public as a whole.

But, the mess which he may have to deal with, has been created and urged on by self-indulgent tory party members and those of a false nationalist leanings are colossal.

I wouldn't envy him the problems he may have to deal with.

-==-=-=

Being decisive is often a fool's excuse for making a mistake when feeling they have to do something.

Have a good evening.

Do you love dogs, Dilbert? Or are you barking?

:o)

Bob Geldof has spoken so I will have to do what he says. When such a great man as he says I am wrong I must join him and the other great thinkers of our time in opposing Brexit.

Ps why doesn’t he stick to making second rate pop songs?

Fred1new, comparing comitting suicide and a democratic vote is not the same or good argument.

You have to admire Fred's chutzpah. Preaching about the right to change one's mind through the democratic vote from one who doesn't vote or ever change his mind.

Lol hils , they really are getting desperate now.

My kids have a dog and although he wasn't born til after the referendum he's definitely a leaver.