Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

And I suggest you go look at what Corby and co said.

When are we getting another Welsh referendum , that was closer than Brexit ?

FRED
as always, you start with the assumption that uk should remain within eu
like it or not, the referendum result said that uk should get out

inevitably, any agreement reached will be and always was going to be some sort of compromise wherein no side loses too much face and where both sides of the argument are not very happy


i happen to think that tm has done a pretty good job in more than trying circumstances

jc, standing on the sidelines, has said that if he and labour are voted into power, he'll back all and any horse that has at least 3 legs and can just about stand

suddenly juncker says that eu negotiations are progressing well
is he to be believed and will anyone decide to derail everything once more?
no one really knows until the fat lady sings, though i would refer you back to my previous post(s)

Manuel,

1) It is not a simple assumption or simple unthought out emotional reaction, but it is a thought-out belief that it is preferable that the UK and its population as a whole will be, or would be better off if we remain within the EU.
2) There was a referendum which resembled, for many, the buying a pig in a poke, and many of its voters were sold a pup.
3) I hoped prior to the referendum that the vote would have been to remain in the Union and that the issue regarding its membership would be put to bed and the problems that the tories had within its own party would be resolved.
4) Unfortunately, the question asked at the referendum did not point out what the problems of withdrawing from the Union would present the UK. If it had and the “people” understood the consequences of “exiting” their responses may have been different.
5) Many of those voting out were voting on “emotion” and reacting to the discomfort they were feeling, economic, personal austerity, racial irritations and having their wellbeing and social expectancies diminished.
6) They were also reacting to what the perceived as an “elitist” government and attempting to give its “betters” a bloody nose”.

-=-=-=-=-=
I posted shortly after the referendum and triggering of article 50. that I thought it was wrong and that any “deal”, new “agreements” or “contracts” to be signed should be put before the House of Parliament for scrutiny and before being ratified voted on by the people’s representatives.

Also, pointing out that the consequences of the “exit” to the living and social standards of the average person.

I also suggested that if we exited the “EU” the agreement in many parts would be a comprise or “fudge” with the UK bowing to the rules and regulations of the EU but no real influence or voting on those “powers”. I.E waiting at the table without any real say in drawing up the menu.

That is what appears to be on offer.
After due consideration, Parliament rejects the offerings I would think it appropriate to have a General Election and for the voters to decide on their future.

Democracy allows for the review of policies and is flexible to allow for a change of direction when circumstances are reviewed.

We used to hang some murderers and other villains. We no longer do so.

-=-=--=

As far as JC is concerned, I suggested at the time of the 2010 election that it would be a good election to lose and again thought the same in 2015 because of the “political confusion and austerity program” being provoked by Cameron and Osborne that it would be better to be an onlooker than taking the blame and responsibility for their legislation.

May’s excursion in general election was based on party political considerations and Corbyn was lucky enough to lose, but on narrower margin than expected.

Doing so, I think has allowed him to consolidate his position as the leader of the labour party and re-evaluate its future policies more pragmatically, as well as time to make them presentable after a calamitous period of tory misrule.

The attempts to smear him by some in the tory and his own party on Anti-Semitism has probably helped him to keep in the public eye and benefitted him. Many of the disgruntled labour party associates, who are vociferous in their criticism of him, are possibly influenced or disconcerted by their fall from grace within “their own” party. (Perhaps, as an afterthought they could join the left wing of the tories.)

Also, this period has given a chance for the Lib/Dem to review their policies and possible reasons for being. At the moment, not sure where they are aiming for.

In the opinion of many, T. May has shown herself to be incompetent of the job she voluntarily undertook to do, similarly to what she achieved when she was when she was working in the Home Office.

Unfortunately, there seems a general dearth to able politician and especially statesmen/women of political ability in National and International Politics at the moment.

Especially, those who do not show naked egocentric narcissism.

(Cynic, there may be a chance for you yet!)

8-)

PS,

What you seem to be accepting:

Someone had blunder’d:
Their’s not to make reply,
Their’s not to reason why,
Their’s but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.


Good luck!

jc has assuredly shown no signs of of being an "able politician" and even you are not singing his praises (for a change)

actually, one might say jc shows all the signs of being an able politician - more slippery than a barrel of eels - but none of leadership or decisiveness

Manuel,

You remind me of the phrase "fools rush in where angels fear to tread".

Cameron and Osborne rushed in without analysing the possible outcome of their actions.

If not, they were more self-delusional than others thought them or simply put, smug tory con artists.

T May picked up a poisoned chalice to deal without reckoning on the consequences to herself and the country based on false pride and vanity, like many of comrades.

She didn't have the "bottle" to analyse the problems she had but rushed into Article 50 decision, probably based on the timing of the next "forced" General Election. Hoping to have finished dealing with the EU problems.

Boris,?????

All of them dangerously inadequate and self-serving.

-=-=-=

I think I would prefer a person who is more cautious in his judgements and analyses the information rather than jumping to false conclusions.

Corbyn and the majority of MPs are having the information about the EU negotiations hidden from them, and what is being leaked about possible changes, change from one moment to another.

No wonder Corbyn is cautious. He is not as gullible as you seem to be.

I don't have to defend Corbyn, he appears to be his own man and not bought by the city or pimps in the Cayman Isles.

Again, I can see some of the difficulties of implementing many of his "policies" and doubt their practicalities and acceptability to the general public as a whole.

But, the mess which he may have to deal with, has been created and urged on by self-indulgent tory party members and those of a false nationalist leanings are colossal.

I wouldn't envy him the problems he may have to deal with.

-==-=-=

Being decisive is often a fool's excuse for making a mistake when feeling they have to do something.

Have a good evening.

Do you love dogs, Dilbert? Or are you barking?

:o)

Bob Geldof has spoken so I will have to do what he says. When such a great man as he says I am wrong I must join him and the other great thinkers of our time in opposing Brexit.

Ps why doesn’t he stick to making second rate pop songs?

Fred1new, comparing comitting suicide and a democratic vote is not the same or good argument.

You have to admire Fred's chutzpah. Preaching about the right to change one's mind through the democratic vote from one who doesn't vote or ever change his mind.

Lol hils , they really are getting desperate now.

My kids have a dog and although he wasn't born til after the referendum he's definitely a leaver.

and praises jc for being totally uncommitted and indecisive, yet castigating tm for sticking to her guns, insofar as she is able given the huge pressures from elsewhere

It.

At least I am not mindless enough to wish to follow the “600” whistling Rule Britannia.

If it wasn’t so sad, it would be comical.
-=-=-=-

Manuel,

Try reading my comments on JC in my posts again, without trying to skew the contents to suit your own positioning.

Also, reread my comments on T. May, who is trying to present a case and solution for your "watery" self-positioning on Brexit, and her seen dilemma on Brexit as initially she was a "remainer", but know is directionless.
The main reason for her staying in “office” to the outsiders watching her continued her attempt to remain PM as a feeble leader of the fragmented tory rabble, is personal vanity.

By her actions she appears to be leading your party consisting of Neo-fascists, Neo-cons and self-serving wishy-washies into the wilderness singing false anthems.

You appear to be supporting a party of self-serving incompetents.

But, I do wonder what your hoped for long-term personal advantages of "Brexit" may be.

long term i don't like the idea one iota of becoming ever more beholden right across the board to brussels (aka germany and to some extent, france)

you choose to differ, and would also seem to like the idea of red flag inspired economics
i do not

and at least i get off my arse and cast a vote for what i regard as the least worst choice
you vehemently do not

I'm not in a position to make a professional diagnosis here but , I suspect Fred1new has basically Brainwashed himself into these thoughts and opinions over time , a general dislike of anything English , Conservative , sensible , etc . It seems he lives in a dream World full of make believe and fantasy , a bit like Corbyn really , of course he himself neither needs to partake in this fantasy or be responsible for it ( thus the no vote ) basically it's easy to do .

I have done a Plumbing course if that qualifies me .

This business of tying all the European countries into together is just crazy.....if there is a serious crisis : the whole community suffers !.....the EU did not deal with massive illegal immigration and so the UK voted to exit....there is no question of a second referendum....it's done and dusted....we exit march 2019.....and in my opinion it's for the better...regardless of all the well-heeled that say otherwise....

Manuel,

“long term i don't like the idea one iota of becoming ever more beholden right across the board to brussels (aka germany and to some extent, france)”


Do you mean in the EU or out of it?

If out:

We are already watching Theresa and consorts kowtowing her way around the world begging for future contracts and borrowing probably trying to do so under the import rules of the countries she hopes to trade with.

Or do you mean kowtowing outside the EU begging for continuation of contracts and already made dealing agreements, but no longer sitting at the table of those who make the rules and regulations or modify them.

Also, seen to be, by the EU members as untrustworthy and motivate by immediate self-satisfaction and prepared and hope to destroy the structure of the EU even though the UK help to construct.

Seems sensible to me. 8-(

-=-=--=

“you choose to differ, and would also seem to like the idea of red flag inspired economics

i do not”

---

No. I think I understand the usefulness of capitalism and its economics.

I think I understand the wishes and aspirations of some of the various forms of
socialism and some of their possible effects on the economic development within a country.

But, personally, I would prefer a form of controlled capitalism. I think perhaps some of the previous diehards in Labour, SNP, LIB/DEM and Greens have moved in that direction.

“and at least i get off my arse and cast a vote for what i regard as the least worst choice
you vehemently do not”
=-=

vehemently??????


Indifferent would be more appropriate.

I think both my vote and myself are inconsequential and the system can do without both.)

But politics, economics and consequences, do interest me.

-=-=
PS.

But I can see why Corbyn, Kenneth Clarke, Dominic Green, and many others (All good communists.) are hesitant and would prefer to negotiate changes in legislation from within the club, rather outside in the queue.

"if there is a serious crisis : the whole community suffers !.....the EU did not deal with massive illegal immigration and so the UK voted to exit"

What should the EU done?

Drowned them!

Washing one's hands of the problems and responsibilities by previous actions they had indulged in.

After WW2 there were between 8-11 million "displaced people".

The problem was accepted and managed.






-=-=-=

Thought Mother Merkel invited quite a few million in didn't she , quite naively .