Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Bedtime reading for Manuel, 241. Dil,

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/23/the-guardian-view-on-the-daily-mail-and-brexit-a-very-public-shift
The Guardian view

Daily Mail
The Guardian view on the Daily Mail and Brexit: a very public shift
Editorial
A new editor has abandoned the aggressive tone with which the Mail campaigned for Brexit. This reflects a change in the public mood

Tue 23 Oct 2018 18.32 BST Last modified on Wed 24 Oct 2018 14.50 BST
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Copies of the Daily Mail
Copies of the Daily Mail. ‘Former Mail heroes like Iain Duncan Smith … were dismissed as ‘vulgar bit-part players’.’ Photograph: Andy Rain/EPA
As a rule, it is a mistake for the press to write about itself. Journalists will always find journalism fascinating. But readers are not nearly so interested in media navel-gazing. If newspapers spent each day analysing one another, readers would rapidly lose interest, and rightly so. Yet the editorial in today’s Daily Mail about the Tory party and Brexit is such a striking change of course that an exception to normal self-restraint is in order.

The headline on its leader – “Saboteurs endangering the nation” – may have seemed like normal Daily Mail fare. This was the newspaper, after all, which in its “Who will speak for England?” headline in 2016 pushed David Cameron aside and placed itself firmly at the head of the leave campaign; which used stories like “Plans to let 1.5m Turks into Britain” to make leave’s final push explicitly anti-migrant; which charged Britain’s impartial judges with being “Enemies of the people” for ruling that parliament was sovereign in the Brexit process; which welcomed Theresa May’s 2017 election launch with a call to “Crush the saboteurs”; and which, under the snarling headline “Proud of yourselves?”, excoriated 11 Tory MPs who backed a meaningful vote on Brexit for their “treachery”.

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Yet the tone and, in particular, the focus of this morning’s leader were, in fact, very different from that confident in-your-face era. Instead of firing up the Brexiters for yet another act of anti-European contempt and defiance, as it had done for so long, the Mail this week turned its fire on them instead. It denounced the “arch-Brexiteers” for their “self-promotion and peacocking” and their efforts to undermine Mrs May. Former Mail heroes like Iain Duncan Smith, David Davis and Mr Johnson were dismissed as “vulgar bit-part players” and “back-stabbing plotters”, compared unfavourably with Brexit secretary Dominic Raab – “grown in stature” – and above all Mrs May, “the only person” who can secure an “acceptable outcome” and “sensible deal”.


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Such language is not just a media milestone. It is also a political one. The Mail is in many ways what it was from the start in 1896: a very brilliant newspaper. But at many points in its history – from Lord Northcliffe’s warmongering before and after 1914, through its publication of the Zinoviev letter forgery in the 1920s to discredit Labour, to its support for fascism under Lord Rothermere in the 1930s, it has also been a reckless political protagonist. So it has been, once again, in our own time. The Mail has been a propagandist for Brexit and for a radical reactionary Tory tradition that looks back to empire and Margaret Thatcher as its guiding lights. The rage and aggression that marked its advocacy of Brexit were absolutely in the Northcliffe tradition. But, like him, they left an indelible mark for the worse in politics and public life. The shockingly violent remarks by Tory MPs about Mrs May this week are part of this legacy. So is the gross Brexit-derived insult to the family of a seriously sick child by Mr Davis’s former chief of staff this week.

The easy explanation for this shift would be to attribute it to the new editor, Geordie Greig, who replaced Paul Dacre last month after a 26-year reign. That is a big factor. But the deeper reason is that the national mood is changing. Brexit is becoming a burden on Britain. Doubts about the future are deepening. Last Saturday, parts of middle Britain to which the Mail does not speak took to the streets against Brexit. Today, police leaders, medicine distributors and scientists were the latest to voice Brexit concerns. Meanwhile the cabinet went on squabbling at home and Liam Fox continued chasing a fantasy trade deal with Donald Trump abroad.

Fanatics are often the last to see that their dreams have turned to nightmares. But the British public, who are not fanatics, get it. So, belatedly, does a Mail that drove so hard to the cliff edge. The message has yet to reach many Tories. But they risk being swept aside if it doesn’t. The hard Brexiters are on the run.

I don't read any papers Fred so they can write whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

Does Labour want Brexit or not Fred?

Does Labour want to remain in the EU?

Oh, its one of those questions you and your leader have a problem answering - as they are not sure what their labour voters would do if they jumped or should I say put a toe in the water let alone jumping one way or another.

JC is such a wet anyway so keeps clear of all water.

Dil,

P 9797

That seems fairly obvious.

Yesterday's news Fred

labour want to be out (to satisfy those voters) but to retain single market access AND also freedom to make deals elsewhere in the world
oh and i forgot ..... they may even allow a 2nd referendum

good strong and decisive leadership by jc, with every chance labour could get that sort of deal at the drop of a hat - easy peasy!
and of course the reality would be blamed on the previous administration

Manuel.

Post 9801,

"that sort of deal at the drop of a hat - easy peasy!
and of course the reality would be blamed on the previous administration"



As promised by leading Brexiters.

The chaos was initiated and coordinated by tory idiots starting with Cameron and Osborne and sustain by T.May and cohorts whose negotiating skills consist of blaming those "Nasty Foreigners" for the problems she is creating.

Why should JC jump to stupid conclusions, which seems to be your forte, when he hasn't seen the books of the trades and fairy tales being written in a book which is lost somewhere between No 10, Tory Central Office and Brussels.

I think JC is wise to let the con artists stew in their own juice.

The responsibility for the impending economic mess belongs to the tory.

--=-=-=

Do you think it will be easier to develop or negotiate deals with the WTO than with the EU.

Even though the EU has its instabilities and problems, to me they appear less than the World as a whole.

The UK won't be self-governing in respect of international law by leaving the EU, have less say in drawing the rules etc. up.

This week in The Guardian:

The How To Indoctrinate Your Children series,

Learn how to love your period and join the Period Positive campaign,

Why Bet Lynch animal print is out and the Betty Turpin retirement home look is in. Wow them at dinner parties this season with the Lancashire Hotpot recipe in our cookery section and regale them with facts from our Cod Knowledge Of The North special,

This weekend from our sister, The Observer, a bumper British history supplement; 162 blank pages.

like all politicians, JC is full of shit, promising the world to anyone and everyone in the hope that some might actually believe what he says
hence he stands up in parliament and tells the party opposite that of course if labour were in power, he would see that everything was resolved pdq (easily apparently) and that everyone would be happy and so on and so on


how good a job has TM done?
hard to say, but she has certainly had a near impossible task, not least because, of those who bothered to vote, 52% of the country voted to leave while 48% wanted to remain

negotiating the divorce was never going to be straightforward, and as far as i can see, TM looks to have done at least a reasonable job

incessant grizzling and whining that the referendum should have gone the other way, is just a waste of breath ...... it didn't, so get used to it, though telling you to do so 2 years after the event, is clearly a waste of time, just as is telling you that you have an obligation to vote

Alf...unnecessary repetition post alert !

I thought you were inferring JC wasn't making decisions.

You appear to me to be more confused than T. May.


PS.

Wait until Soros gets going.

8-)

where did i say JC made decisions?

and yes stan, i concur it is a bit repetitive, but i rarely bother to respond to fred's droning

He better hurry up Fred , last week of BST in the EU.

155 days to go , tick tock.

More like “155 days to go, tick toch” until the first informed referendum Dil.

Did you mean "kick it into touch" Stan. The battle cry in the Fortress.
The first referendum was informed but the booklet that the government sent out on the subject had too many words of more than one syllable for the average remainiac to understand.

from today's FT, and exactly so .......

I have no doubt that there would be majority support for “taking back control” from the EU without giving anything up. The public would also support Labour’s formulation of keeping “the exact same benefits” of EU membership while also leaving. Neither of those is remotely negotiable.

They wouldn't get one of their six tests approved by the EU.

Corby and co are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Cynic - I would not describe "the exact same benefits" as being of benefit except to the likes of France - Germany - Italy - Greece - Ireland etc. They are the ones that benefit from the UK.

The country has choosen to jump into cold water - just jump - you will get used to it and soon come to the conclusion that it was not cold after all.

i have just lifted this from FT though i completely agree with its sentiment

Perhaps, Corbyn would prefer to remain in the EU than many would suspect.

It appears to many others that the con artists are stabbing themselves in their own backs.

Long may it continue.

8-)