Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

I'm finding this thread so much faster to read these days and drivel-free :)

you must be reading a different thread or have you squelched several - lol!

Is anybody going to read through this crap....Fred1new : you need help....nuts..blogging like this on a finance site !.

No just the one squashed.......some of the others are funny so that makes them worth reading :)

And that goes for Sivad as well...what has this to do with finance or bet spreading ?, nothing more than political broadcasting....perhaps this is the BBC...they are very good at the one sided Labour interviews !, and such !.

threads here do not have to single-minded, thank goodness

Required, You don't have to read the thread.

Cynic, I have squelched a number of posters. The posters I have blocked are those where I thought the individuals were concentrating on being offensive of deliberately vulgar. They appeared to have more satisfaction from attempting to disparage anybody with a conflicting opinion to their own and an inability accept alternative ways of looking at a problem. I think they expose themselves for others to judge.

I see them as limited and bigoted.


At least I did respect Sivad enough to read what he posted and follow it up.
I think if one does have time to read the debate in the House of Lords "That this House takes note of developments in Gaza" it is informative. Giving views from both sides of the conflict. But I wouldn't expect the "funny gang" to be able to concentrate for long enough to be able to do so.

"threads here do not have to single-minded, thank goodness"

Even the mind-less can post lol

Got to stop T.S.O. from posting 1000 otherwise he'll attach some weird significance to it and re-inforce the self-delusional thought processes.

:)

OK fun time over
Time to trade and make money

Fred: you said: They appeared to have more satisfaction from attempting to disparage the anybody with a conflicting opinion to their own and an inability accept alternative ways of looking at a problem.

Coming from you, that is bloody hilarious.

Interesting quote by Lord Eden of Winton in House of Lord Debate

I conclude by again quoting the distinguished author, David Grossman. In the New Statesman of 2 February, addressing his fellow Jewish citizens, he wrote,

"when the magnitude of the killing and the devastation become apparent to all ... Maybe then we will finally understand something deep and fundamentalthat our conduct here in this region has, for a long time, been flawed, immoral and unwise. In particular, it time and again fans the flames that consume us".

A letter to the
citizens of Gaza from a concerned neighbor


Dear
neighbor,



My name is David
and I live in Israel , thirty minutes (or one minute rocket time)
from you,
in a beautiful house by the woods. I hope someday to have you
over for a cup
of tea. We have a lovely view from the balcony. On a clear day
we can see
our jets bombing your neighborhood.


I think it's
time we had a heart to heart. It's time you knew the truth.
After all, what
are neighbors for? You might have wondered why both you and your
parents
were born in a refugee camp. Why is it that even though we live
only 30
minutes apart, I live in prosperity and you live in poverty and
filth? Why
you live in despair and hatred while we live in hope and love.



Here is the
truth, neighbor:



There really was
a Holocaust. I realize you've been taught otherwise. I know,
that ever since
you were a small child you've been told that the Holocaust is
something the
Jews fabricated to justify taking your land. Well, dear citizen
of Gaza , it
really happened. Not very long ago. It happened. And guess what?
It's NEVER
going to happen again. The time in history when Jews were led to
slaughter,
persecuted, raped and pillaged is over and will never recur.
Never. Now we
have our own country. Now we have the bombs. We will never
forget what was
done to our people and you better not either.


We don't hate
you. We don't hate anyone. Jews are a peaceful people. We do not
want your
land. We don't want oil. We don't want to rape your women or
murder your
children. We never tried to force our religion on anyone. Our
eternal
capital, Jerusalem , is open to all faiths to love and to
worship. We treat
your Arab brothers who live among us as equals. Our hand has
been extended
to peace with our neighbors since day one. We have proven this
time and time
again through numerous negotiations and extensive compromise.



We ask only for
one thing. Leave us in peace. That's right. We have no other
demands. Just
leave us in peace. It's as simple as that. If you don't, we will
fight back
ferociously and mercilessly. We will destroy your homes and your
cities. We
will make your miserable lives even more miserable. If you don't
want this
to happen anymore, leave us in peace.



Our soldiers are
not motivated by hate but by determination. We embrace life and
will do
anything to preserve it. However, we will kill and die to
protect our land
and our way of life. That's what they should be teaching in your
schools
instead of useless lies.


A terrorist is a
terrorist. Sorry to be the one to break the news, but it's about
time
somebody told you that a terrorist is nothing more than a
coward. Not a
hero. Not a Shahid. There is nothing heroic in blowing yourself
up amongst a
crowd of woman and children. Anybody can do it. Anybody can hide
inside a
school or a mosque and blindly fire rockets into cities, hoping
to kill as
many babies as possible. There is nothing courageous or
admirable in these
acts of cruelty. To take pride in an act of terror is pitiful
and pathetic.
I know you've been raised to believe the contrary, but it is a
lie. I have
seen how your children are taught to commit suicide. How your
suicide
bombers are glorified. This is tragically sad. A real hero faces
his enemy
and doesn't hide in schools and hospitals. A real hero protects
his people
and will die for them but not among them.


Israel exists and it
belongs to the Jewish People. I've seen your school books. I
know that
Israel has been omitted from your maps. Contrary to what you've
been told,
the State of Israel really does exist. Look outside your window.
We are here
and we are not going anywhere. Dear Palestinian neighbor, it's
time to deal
with the facts. We love our beautiful little country. We will
protect it
with our lives. You are not getting it. This was explained to
you in 1948.
You got your country and we got ours. Your arrogant and stupid
leaders
promised you that you will get the whole thing. Thousands have
lives have
been lost for nothing. It's NEVER going to happen! While you
have been
foolishly drooling over our land instead of nurturing your own,
we have
built one of the most beautiful and successful countries on
Earth. We have
done it not to spite our greedy neighbors, but rather in spite
of them.
We've planted forests and quenched the desert. We've drained
wetlands and
cultivated fields. We built universities, opera houses,
superhighways,
hospitals, skyscrapers and stadiums. We have millions of
refugees, but no
refugee camps.



You could do the
same. Focus on what you have and not on what you will never
have. It takes
love, hard work and determination. We can help. We have experts
and
scientists helping developing nations across the globe. Accept
the facts,
lay down your weapons and join us in making this great region of
the planet
even greater.


Remember, we're
neighbors.


David
Rosenblatt, Sarigim , Israel - Jan. 9th, 2009

Sivad, your posts are excellent and you are a great contributor to this thread.
Richard

The problem is that Israel does exists and their opponents do not and have not accepted that. Does Israel have the right to exist? I am not sure of that. The comments about terrorists in the letter above are really nonsense as the state of Israel was founded on terrorism with many of their leaders having been terrorists at some point.

Sivad,

Interesting.

But it would have been more acceptable, if Israel had shown more positive signs of negotiations over the last few years.

I would like to refresh some memories.

.

Estimates of Deaths during World War 2 vary, but are totalled at approximately of 75 millions, of these estimated Jewish deaths vary between 5.5 to 6.5millions.

I do not dispute the Holocaust claims, but I am fed up with what sometimes appears to be a dismissal of the total number of people killed during that period, without any comparisons being made.

Many of my wifes family were prisoners of war during that period; many relatives and friends were shot and killed during that period and as a consequence of that period. Many of those ended up in unmarked graves.

Members of my own family, were in that war and later unprepared to talk of their experiences of that period.

It was horrendous war. So were the Korean and Vietnam wars, etc.

That is why others of similar opinion to myself, do not want another bloody debacle in the Middle East or anywhere else.

The sabre rattling against Iran etc., can be seen as attempts to provoke a war. I am not suggesting that Iran is less than innocent,

.


I think and hope that the current Obamma administrations approach to the Middle East, and the rest of the world, will be more moderate than the previous American Administration.

I enclose, some more extracts from the House of Lords debate:

(Thank you for pointing me to a very interesting and informative debate.)




Lord Dykes (Liberal Democrat) Link to this | Hansard source******
My Lords, last week, the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, and I disagreed over the euro, but this week I heartily agree with his sagacious words in this debate. He is clearly a man of peace who brings communities and people together. I thank him for his suggestions. We were particularly grateful to the Conservative spokesman on the Front Bench for referring to the change of attitudes in Turkey, which the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, also mentioned. That is a significant factor.

Understandably, there has been repeated mention of terrorism; there is also the phenomenon of terrorism in uniform which, sadly, was practised by the British and American Armed Forces on hapless civilians in Iraq in the illegal invasion in 2003. As a party, we condemned that from our Benches. Terrorism in uniform was inflicted by the IDF on hapless and trapped Palestinian civilians. That may have been a turning point for IsraelI hope in a positive sense of achieving peace as a result of these terrible events. Z. Brezinski described what happened in Gaza as a "massacre". That is the only word that one can use. The foolishness and recklessness meted out by Israeli leaderspartly, even presumably, to win votes in the forthcoming election next week, which is an astonishing suggestionwas a crime on the Palestinians as well as a huge tragedy for Israel, shortly after celebrating 60 years of dynamic history. What an immense tragedy at this time for that country

Shortsighted Israeli voters may well, according to the polls, be preparing to vote for an extreme right-wing leader and party who apparently believe in perpetual Israeli warfare with the enemy. However, the real thinking voters in Israel know in their ever-sinking hearts that this is the road to total ruin for this important country in the Middle East. As I have been a friend of Israel for many years and, I hope, a thinking and candid friend, I pay the strongest tribute to the huge, never-before seen, Jewish protests at home, in the world diaspora and in Britain against the recent aggression by Israeli armed forces and their political leaders.

Noble Lords should make no mistake about it, this was Israel's Sharpeville, although, tragically, the killing, maiming for life and injuries were on a much bigger scale in the Gaza open-air prison that was created by western ineptitude as well Israeli misdeeds. It will never be forgotten, because footage by Al Jazeera television and other Arabian services have made sure that all this was seen on television by Arabian viewers and Palestinians in the West Bank.

Now we hear similar excuses for the killings uttered by shameless Israeli leaders, which make many Israelis feel utterly embarrassed. No wonder this situation is similar to what the apartheid rulers in South Africa used to say before apartheid was eventually abolished. Yet brave, fair-minded and decent Israelis in their thousands and hundreds of thousands, and many fellow Jews abroad, have protested as never before on a massive scale. We must all pay tribute, as has been said, to the tireless work of Jews for Justice for Palestinians, to rabbis who are in favour of Palestine being a state, to B'TSelem and the other outstanding human rights groups in Israel which do fantastic work, and to Peace Now which is a marvellous organisation whose UK committee is chaired by Paul Usiskin, one of the signatories to the recent protest letters. I have long supported those organisations. What a pity that Daniel Barenboim could not stand for the Knesset or do something in the Israeli election after the one next week. What work he has done to bring these two countries and communities together.

While Gaza 2008-09 can never be forgotten, the hope for the future lies in people such as those and the Palestinian moderates. In Israel, it lies with people whose family history of persecution and suffering has honed their sense of doing right for the Palestinians after 41 years of ever more brutal illegal occupation of what remains of Palestinian-owned land. I am thinking also of people such as Gerald Kaufman MP, who has already been mentioned. He is now being insulted by the hard-line IDF and its right-wing supporters for his brave speech in the House of Commons, which I heard. I visited the West Bank with him in November 2005 and saw the appallingthat is the only word for itsituation there, which has not significantly improved since then; in many ways, it has got worse for the ever patient Palestinians under the Palestinian Authority. It is right that such people, as well as this House in this debate, should be protesting about this matter.

This is not only about common sense; it is about generosity. The Palestinian Authority is officially asking for the return of only 22 per cent of the combined territory. Israel has so much and has created so much, but Palestinians are left with so little. Where is that traditional, legendary Jewish hospitality and generosity which we are used to seeing all over the world and which we have always strongly supported? I find it difficult to credit that people such as Olmert cannot properly negotiate after so many years of time-wasting and shoals of US vetoes allowing Israel to misbehave.
The only two countries in the world that now routinely and frequently bomb and kill civilians in other people's lands are the USA and Israel. I hope and assume that Barack Obama will now change all that poison in America, so can we please ask the Israeli authorities to do the same? Although these terrible events cannot be forgotten, it would then be possible, patiently and slowly, to return to long-lasting friendship between Arabia, Palestine and Israel. The so far disappointingly myopic Israeli politicians should have the courage to grasp this opportunity.

I know that people in Israeli government circles are hoping that, as time passes, the international community will lose interest in the subject of war crimes trials and all the rest of it, but that will not happen; people in the UN and elsewhere will not let this go. Interesting suggestions have been made by the Malaysian Parliament and Government about how to invoke the ICC provisions, as has been mentioned. George Bush could be indicted for war crimes in Iraq under those procedures, while only the ordinary procedure would be needed for Tony Blair, as the UK supports the ICC, I am glad to say, although that may never happen either. If the US dared to use its veto in the future, there would be such disgust with its conduct after what has happened, and after so many of its vetoes over the years have meant that Israel has not had to behave according to international law, that people would say, "Enough is enough".
It would be truly ironic if, after the election next week, the failure to respond by defiant and myopic Israeli leaders were to be the reason for the loss of their own Zionist state. No fair-minded person in the world wants to harm Israel. It is an excellent country that has achieved much in 60 years. However, that could be the end result, foolishly and unexpectedly, if the Palestinians decide to abandon the two-state solution and ask for citizenship in a single secular state in the combined areas.

There are other imperatives in this awful scenario of bitterness, pain and hatred over what has happened recently. First, Senator Mitchell must be allowed to succeed. There are no excuses left this time. The world is fed up to the back teeth with the endless saga of US Middle East peace envoys being hijacked and destroyed by US-Israeli joint manoeuvrings to prevent Israel from negotiating and obeying 242 and all the other resolutions after 41 years of occupation. We saw all the details of that in the remarkable book by John Mearsheimer and Stephen M Walt, published in 2007. Forty-two US vetoes preventing Israel from doing what was necessary have led to this impasse. What short-sighted behaviour by a country that, under President Eisenhower, was much wiser in dealing with imperial powers in the Middle East and with Israel. It is astonishing to me how many people in the US and the UK either do not know about the vetoes or think that they are not important.

Meanwhile, the pathetic road map quartet, especially the cringingly embarrassing EU portion of it, must resolve to reform itself or, indeed, abolish itself if it cannot carry on properly and if it is not up to the task of insisting, at long last, on real, rapid negotiations between the parties. Russia, too, should pull its socks up and insist on all this when it hosts the March quartet summit.

Foreign peacekeeping forces will have to be stationed along these provocative frontiers pending the eventual full peace accord and a deal to set up a fully sovereign and genuine Palestinian state. Hamas must keep to the ceasefire offered, despite any provocations. It must renounce the use of violence and stop the rockets that give such an easy excuse for the Israeli military to go berserk. Then, it must be offered a full place in the negotiations right away. Fatah needs to recognise the legitimacy of Hamas, which in effect is much stronger than its own, and not only in Gaza. Mahmoud Abbas should maybe step down, as he is thinking of doing, and a much more realistic negotiator should be put in place as presidential candidateperhaps someone such as Barghouti, Erekat or even Ashrawi. Meanwhile, the EU needs seriously to consider trade and other sanctions if Israel is not seen to be complying with the demands of the international community.

The whole of Arabia is watching meticulously and sharply to see that Europe and the USA behave properly, openly and fairly with both sides. Any more blunders or kowtowing to the extreme Zionist lobbyin itself, a grossly exaggerated excuse anywayand legions of new young Arab terrorist volunteers will be spawned automatically for al-Qaeda and Islamic Jihad in their many forms. If Israel wants 100 years of war, it will surely have it in full measure, but I do not believe that it does; I believe that sensible people in Israel will avoid that by doing what is necessary. Mr Obama needs to use his Chief of Staff to explain carefully the new realities. Britain, France and Holland were initially foolishly slow to give freedom to their colonies, but they eventually cottoned on and acted pretty rapidly. Now it is the turn of Israel to show modern Judaeo-Christian common sense and wisdom.

Fred - that's sick.

Towards the beginning of your post (in the bit I could be bothered to read) you quote a figure of between 5.5 and 6.5 million jews killed during the second world war vs 75m others. You do this to try to belittle the effect of the holocaust on the jewish people.

You seem to think that all jews sat the war out in ghettos, concentration camps and death camps. Do you not realise that in addition to those killed in the death camps, jewish people were also properly represented as soldiers in the British, American, Soviet, Canadian, Australian and other allied armies?

And do you think that somehow the jewish civilians were exempt from the killing?

Do you deliberately exclude jewish military and civilian deaths from your figures?

The best current estimates of WW2 deaths are: 25m military, 48m civilian (of which 5.7m were holocaust victims). Jewish population in the allies mentioned above at the time was about 3% - and a disproportionately high percentage of them lied about their ages to join up and serve. Similarly, amongst the civilian population, the incoming bombs did not discriminate between religions.

If you want to be taken seriously (which you don't) then I suggest you redo the maths (which you won't).

Gausie-very well presented.

I agree with Gausie ragarding the Jewish dead. A huge number of Jews also served in the British and US armies as well. However, I do not see any connection with the existence of the state of Israel. The terrible things that were done to the Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Disabled and other groups in the war need to be separated from the problems in the Middle East.