Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

this abuse virus must be an ebola mutant :-)

It seems ExcecLine got angry over nothing ,i thought he was joking .

Courtesy of freddie ferret @afn
30 Jan'15 - 17:12 - 65166 of 65167 0 0


This is very good and well worth the read.



https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/alexis-tsipras-open-letter-to-the-german-people/


ALEXIS TSIPRAS: OPEN LETTER TO THE GERMAN PEOPLE

By John Ward January 30, 2015

Western media ignore Tsipras letter to German People

As the western media are studiously ignoring this, The Slog decides it deserves some oxygen



Most of you, dear [German] readers, will have formed a preconception of what this article is about before you actually read it. I am imploring you not to succumb to such preconceptions. Prejudice was never a good guide, especially during periods when an economic crisis reinforces stereotypes and breeds biggotry, nationalism, even violence.

In 2010, the Greek state ceased to be able to service its debt.

Unfortunately, European officials decided to pretend that this problem could be overcome by means of the largest loan in history on condition of fiscal austerity that would, with mathematical precision, shrink the national income from which both new and old loans must be paid. An insolvency problem was thus dealt with as if it were a case of illiquidity.

In other words, Europe adopted the tactics of the least reputable bankers who refuse to acknowledge bad loans, preferring to grant new ones to the insolvent entity so as to pretend that the original loan is performing while extending the bankruptcy into the future. Nothing more than common sense was required to see that the application of the ‘extend and pretend’ tactic would lead my country to a tragic state. That instead of Greece’s stabilization, Europe was creating the circumstances for a self-reinforcing crisis that undermines the foundations of Europe itself.

My party, and I personally, disagreed fiercely with the May 2010 loan agreement not because you, the citizens of Germany, did not give us enough money but because you gave us much, much more than you should have and our government accepted far, far more than it had a right to. Money that would, in any case, neither help the people of Greece (as it was being thrown into the black hole of an unsustainable debt) nor prevent the ballooning of Greek government debt, at great expense to the Greek and German taxpayer.

Indeed, even before a full year had gone by, from 2011 onwards, our predictions were confirmed. The combination of gigantic new loans and stringent government spending cuts that depressed incomes not only failed to rein the debt in but, also, punished the weakest of citizens turning people who had hitherto been living a measured, modest life into paupers and beggars, denying them above all else their dignity. The collapse of incomes pushed thousands of firms into bankruptcy boosting the oligopolistic power of surviving large firms. Thus, prices have been falling but more slowly than wages and salaries, pushing down overall demand for goods and services and crushing nominal incomes while debts continue their inexorable rise. In this setting, the deficit of hope accelerated uncontrollably and, before we knew it, the ‘serpent’s egg’ hatched – the result being neo-Nazis patrolling our neighbourhoods, spreading their message of hatred.

Despite the evident failure of the ‘extend and pretend’ logic, it is still being implemented to this day. The second Greek ‘bailout’, enacted in the Spring of 2012, added another huge loan on the weakened shoulders of the Greek taxpayers, “haircut” our social security funds, and financed a ruthless new cleptocracy.

Respected commentators have been referring of recent to Greece’s stabilization, even of signs of growth. Alas, ‘Greek-covery’ is but a mirage which we must put to rest as soon as possible. The recent modest rise of real GDP, to the tune of 0.7%, signals not the end of recession (as has been proclaimed) but, rather, its continuation. Think about it: The same official sources report, for the same quarter, an inflation rate of -1.80%, i.e. deflation. Which means that the 0.7% rise in real GDP was due to a negative growth rate of nominal GDP! In other words, all that happened is that prices declined faster than nominal national income. Not exactly a cause for proclaiming the end of six years of recession!

Allow me to submit to you that this sorry attempt to recruit a new version of ‘Greek statistics’, in order to declare the ongoing Greek crisis over, is an insult to all
Europeans who, at long last, deserve the truth about Greece and about Europe. So, let me be frank: Greece’s debt is currently unsustainable and will never be serviced, especially while Greece is being subjected to continuous fiscal waterboarding. The insistence in these dead-end policies, and in the denial of simple arithmetic, costs the German taxpayer dearly while, at once, condemning to a proud European nation to permanent indignity. What is even worse: In this manner, before long the Germans turn against the Greeks, the Greeks against the Germans and, unsurprisingly, the European Ideal suffers catastrophic losses.

Germany, and in particular the hard-working German workers, have nothing to fear from a SYRIZA victory. The opposite holds. Our task is not to confront our partners. It is not to secure larger loans or, equivalently, the right to higher deficits.
Our target is, rather, the country’s stabilization, balanced budgets and, of course, the end of the grand squeeze of the weaker Greek taxpayers in the context of a loan agreement that is simply unenforceable. We are committed to end ‘extend and pretend’ logic not against German citizens but with a view to the mutual
advantages for all Europeans.

Dear readers, I understand that, behind your ‘demand’ that our government fulfills all of its ‘contractual obligations’ hides the fear that, if you let us Greeks some breathing space, we shall return toour bad, old ways. I acknowledge this anxiety. However, let mesay that it was not SYRIZA that incubated the cleptocracy which today pretends to strive for ‘reforms’, as long as these ‘reforms’ do not affect their ill-gotten privileges. We are ready and willing to introduce major reforms for which we are now seeking a mandate to implement from the Greek electorate, naturally in collaboration with our European partners.

Our task is to bring about a European New Deal within which our people can breathe, create and live in dignity.

A great opportunity for Europe is about to be born in Greece. An opportunity Europe can ill afford to miss.

The new Greek government have said they won't talk to the troika of IMF, EU and banks. They want to speak directly to the leaders of the individual EU countries. Merkel, today, has replied that there will be no debt relief for Greece. That pretty much settles it. The EU is worried about the emerging anti austerity parties in Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy. They also want to be rid of the far left government in Greece. You can expect an explosive clash between Greece and the EU. Greece are due a major instalment of their bailout any day now. Will they get it?

"There has already been voluntary debt forgiveness by private creditors, banks have already slashed billions from Greece's debt," Mrs Merkel said.

"I do not envisage fresh debt cancellation."

ignore the public posturing .... the real work and negotiation is done behind the scenes

Tsipras has got Merkel by the short and curlys.

The debt is unpayable, theres simply too much of it.

By any normal reckoning, the land of €l Greco is bust, and all sides will have to see that more of the same simply wont do.


edit: Extend and pretend...100 year bonds have been mentioned.

the money in itself is a relatively minor issue
the important bit is how strong the will is to keep EU together and € as its currency

it then becomes a matter of bluff and poker and, for the outside world, yet more smoke and mirrors

Any signs of Greece leaving the EU may cause money to leave European banks in general and Greek banks in particular. Who would leave any assets in Greek banks when they would be converyed into a new heavily devalued currency. There have aleady been reports of money fleeing Greece. A GRexit could cause a banking crisis. The EU will try hard to keep Greece in the Euro and EU. I am for taking a very hard line with the debt. The Greeks borrowed vast sums of cheap money from the EU and spent it on stupid things and expect the debt to be forgiven. Unemployment has recently started to reverse and GDP recover. They risk making things worse and exactly the opposite of what the new government has promised.

money is already fleeing greece, much of it probably into london property

Some of the pro's and cons.



Go ahead, Angela, make my day

Syriza’s win could lead to Grexit, but it should lead to a better future for the euro





IT WAS in Greece that the infernal euro crisis began just over five years ago. So it is classically fitting that Greece should now be where the denouement may be played out—thanks to the big election win on January 25th for the far-left populist Syriza party led by Alexis Tsipras (see article). By demanding a big cut in Greece’s debt and promising a public-spending spree, Mr Tsipras has thrown down the greatest challenge so far to Europe’s single currency—and thus to Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, who has set the austere path for the continent.

The stakes are high. Although everybody, including Mr Tsipras, insists they want Greece to stay in the euro, there is now a clear threat of Grexit. In 2011-12 Mrs Merkel wavered, but then decided to support the Greeks to keep them in the single currency. She did not want Germany to be blamed for another European disaster, and both northern creditors and southern debtors were nervous about the consequences of a chaotic Greek exit for Europe’s banks and their economies.

This time the odds have changed. Grexit would look more like the Greeks’ fault, Europe’s economy is stronger and 80% of Greece’s debt is in the hands of other governments or official bodies. Above all the politics are different. The Finns and the Dutch, like the Germans, want Greece to stick to promises it made when they twice bailed it out. And in southern Europe centrist governments fear that a successful Greek blackmail would push voters towards their own populist opposition parties, like Spain’s Podemos (see article).


More:http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21641200-syrizas-win-could-lead-grexit-it-should-lead-better-future-euro-go-ahead

Syriza’s victory will inspire other populists to challenge Europe’s political order

Jan 31st 2015 |


http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21641273-syrizas-victory-will-inspire-other-populists-challenge-europes-political-order-greece-and-its

Do you mean UKIP will win the G.E.?

at the last euro-elections there was already a strong showing from many countries and parties who wanted significant reform

being totally self-serving and unaccountable, having made some conciliatory noises, "brussels" then continued unperturbed and undisturbed on its own merry way

just possibly, this greek tragedy will force matters

With a bit of luck c.

I am wondering whether the "Greek democratic revolt" will stimulate the more left of centre leaning UK voters, who seem in some ways amazingly apathetic at the moment to vote.


It seems to have lifted the mood of the Spanish public.

I wonder what "political weapons" will be used in the last 20 to 30 days in the run up to the general elections.

NHS crashing. Welfare services overloaded and crashing, Prison services educating offenders to use drugs and crashing out, teachers out on strike. Doctors leaving the country and frequent trips by Osborne and Cameron to the Cayman Isle.

Let's hope The EU stamps out this lefty nonsense quickly before the disease spreads. The hard medicine in Greece has been paying off. Unemployment is falling and GDP has started to rise. Hopefully the EU will take a tough line and ensure the the new government will have to renege on its promises.

Haystack.

The original debt has almost doubled since the 2008 blow-up.

Greece is not coming out of anything, it is going down the toilet.


What do you not understand about about rising debt?