Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

hilary , if you went with political odds makers of the last few years you would be bankrupt :))

M , knew you were in trouble when you signed Kanu. Welsh legend after his goal against Belgium at the Euro's but even the Cardiff fans didn't want to sign him although he was a free agent.

Cardiff favourites to go up with Wolves but not confident the bookies have got that right so keep the faith ... positive village mentality :-)

Hils , if Soros chucks me 50k this summer then I'm willing to start a campaign on here for a second referendum :-)

as usual (so predictable), fred lays into the tory leadership via his (inevitable) cartoons

so which leader would Fred suggest? ...... Corbyn?
racing certainty he won't actually say who he'ld like to see leading UK's exit from Europe

One can dislike the referendum result, but that's what UK voted for, so it's no good sitting around wringing your hands and wishing it hadn't happened

interesting to note that even France is now clamouring for a drastic overhaul of the eurozone

I'll take the money too cause we will only vote out again.
When will these folk get it , it's over .

Manuel.

At the present time, I would think the tory party needs its Queen of Vacillation.

They certainly have one.

The UK doesn't!

Ps

Was she your mother?

Manuel.

If you go back a few hundred posts you will see that I wrote that the result of Brexit will probably be the UK outside the EU. having to accept the rules and regulation, paying towards the running costs, but not having any say in the rules and regulations.

But able to go back with a begging bowl in hand when they need help.

Littel of no influence on its future developments. And the 27 remaining players remembering the costs of the Brexit fiasco.

Of course, the Brexiters will be puffing out their chests and shouting like the football mob "we won".

and as usual you do not address the question asked .... why do you not try it for a refreshing change?

lest your brain is neo-goldfish (like mine i fear), the below is the question again ....
so which leader would Fred suggest? ...... Corbyn?
racing certainty he won't actually say who he'ld like to see leading UK's exit from Europe


if that's a tad complex for you, try the dumbed down version ....
Fred - who would you like to see leading UK's negotiations to exit from Europe?

cynic take your own advice and stop conversing with Fred , he doesn't vote anyway so why is he so interested ?

Manuel.

It is your right to ask questions.

It is my right not to waste time on responding to you.

Choke on it if you wish to.

However, I would much prefer to have Corbyn or even Cable to be negotiating with "Brussels" for the benefit of all in the UK, than the present government's incumbents negotiating for themselves and attempting to hold on to power and protect their own personal interests.

Is "the PM says", the new mantra from tory party central office?


But Manuel with your degree of egocentricity I can understand your disagreements with me.

-===-=

I will wait and see the results of the "elite's" negotiations.

Europe is beginning to laugh at the "little englanders".


Edited!

For Manuel from another tory idiot!


Tories’ Brexit unity fades as Heseltine slams May’s speech


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/03/tories-brexit-michael-heseltine-theresa-may






But I forgot he disagrees with the neo-cons.

interesting that corbyn and cable surely come from very different angles

i confess i've rather lost track of cable ..... i know used to rate him quite highly, but i don't have any idea what sort of deal he would seek with eu

corbyn's line is suddenly very much to stay in, and though he pretends he would honour the public's wish to extricate itself from europe, neither his words nor his actions support that

Manuel,

Suggest a read of The Observer view on Theresa May’s Brexit speech
Observer editorial :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/04/the-observer-view-on-theresa-mays-brexit-speechhttp://

It expresses my fears.

-=-==-=

Corbyn has amongst other problems:

1) his own misgivings about some of the EU
2) he is the leader of a party and is trying to have a cohesive policy representative of the party's "desires or wishes" as a whole.
3) a lack of information on what "out" really means and the consequences of that "out".

That is the stupidity of the situation.

If you have staggered through p8813 have a look at Rawnsley appraisal:


It is beyond this prime minister to beat Brexit swords into ploughshares
Andrew Rawnsley

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/04/theresa-may-brexit-speech-mansion-house-swords-ploughshares


He is guessing as much as many others are.

i like bits of the guardian on most days and for many reasons, but the real key of the article you highlight, which brussels would also do well to take on board, is the obvious, "If a deal is to be done, then both sides will have to do some compromising"

the article also raises the question from the german journalist, "Is Brexit really worth it?"
an equivocal answer is the only answer, but certainly it is what the british public voted for

i have no idea what the final outcome will be, and nor does anyone else, but for sure i would hope that the rest of the eurozone does not allow itself to be led by the nose by the brussels heavyweights - eg juncker and his colleague wreckers




by and large i agree with you about "the stupidity of the situation"
in fact, corbyn (were he in power) would have exactly the same problems as tm ...... and of course corbyn knows, though he (and his union puppet-masters) doesn't want to face up to it, is that out means exactly that


we happen to disagree that the better way to sort out the overbearing power and other malpractices (profligacy and worse) of the eu was to stay in ....

my view, and that of many other (sensible) voters to leave, is that the only way to focus the mind of brussels was to leave or become something of a sacrificial lamb if you insist

"but certainly it is what the british public voted for"


Less than 33% of the possible electorate voted for stated "out", whatever they thought that meant to them at the time.

Perhaps, many did not like the slovenly way the referendum was stated.

-=-=-=-=

Britain leaving Britain will be followed by the EU tuning its back on the UK.

Work out, as a proportion, what trade with Britain means to each individual country of the EU.

-=-=-=-

By the way, to whom does the present cabinet bend over backwards and show their backsides to?

Friends in the Cayman Isles or Qatar?

-=-=-=

If there is a good case to plead again the "organisation", plead them in Brussels without going whining off into the wilderness.

Behave as big boys do.

Accept majority rulings but keep negotiating until one can sway opinion in you favour or review what you are requesting.

now try to offer a balanced view for a change .... it';s because you rarely (almost never do) that you are so boringly tiresome and thus ignored most of the time


perhaps start by practicing what you preach - accept majority rulings and behave as big boys do
to leave eu is what the majority who voted, voted for

those who failed to cast a vote one way or another, abdicated their responsibility and have no right to complain about the what the majority of those who voted did vote for

Manuel,

You are beginning to become more and more repetitive.

Senility advances.

-=-=-=-=

Those who voted against remaining in the EU were voting against a fictitious enemy, many being xenophobic and blaming others for their woes and the failures of themselves and their own poor government.

The goals and gains of voting out were ill-defined, pie in the sky and illusionary and fed by con artists to the discontented.

Rants similar to the neo-fascists in Germany in the 1930 and present day BNP.

(Are you affiliated to the latter. )

About 30% of the electorate voted for the unknown.

The unknown is still unknown and you seem daft enough to pay for it.

Perhaps, you will be able to buy a hideaway in Qatar.

-=--=-=-=-=-=-=

Those who voted against remaining in the EU were voting against a fictitious enemy ...... absolutely not so

one could make a similarly fatuous comment about those who voted to remain

i KNOW why i ultimately decided to vote out though, and as posted many times at the time, with grave misgivings

Who is it that keeps reminding us about wasting time talking to Fred when there are other things more useful to do do?