This thread was originally created in the Traders room by Sonofagun, he has given me his kind permission to copy it over to here for you all to read and to add any of your experiences.
If we all come together we have the power to change things.
I also recommend to those who haven't subscribed to gain access to the Traders room, to think carefully about doing so as there is a wealth of information in there, including trading tips, tactics, etc, it's very busy and well worth the money in my opinion.

CMC-Please Comment

Sonofagun - 07 Aug'03 - 23:09


I think the MD of Cmc owes us all an explanation-he is noticeable by his absence!
Anybody reading the traders thread over the past few weeks will have noticed the following:

1) Marketmaker is becoming increasingly unreliable at peak times-coincidence or what?
2) The system keeps hanging, locks up & requotes are endless even for amounts of 500 shares in highly fluid stocks ie Barc/Lloy/Hbos etc etc etc
4) You can tell once your order is placed that they just wait to see how it's looking before confirming-some would call this stacking the odds!
3) Why post a price if you can't deliver?
4) Why are your staff so rude?
5) A confirmed order to me is when you get a green ticket-why then when you have cancelled an order several times & never got a green ticket- do some go through & some not? Selective after the event or what?
6) How are we supposed to know whether it has gone through when you won't answer phone calls, it doesn't show on orders for the day & your financial summary is wrong or conveniently unavailable???
7) Many have complained previously that those in profit are subject to the most harassment-any truth in this?

I for one am seriously looking to switch out of Cmc as I can no longer trust being treated as a valued customer-I don't want to sweat over every order wondering if I'm going to be able to trade it at the price shown.

If you don't want day traders just tell us-that would at least be honest!

I'm sure others on the day traders thread will have their own gripes & I'd be fascinated to hear them.

Your comments would be most welcome



Iain - 07 Aug'03 - 23:14 - 1 of 242


"4) Why are your staff so rude?"
Cos there all Ex Barrow boys from the East End who now spend theyre days On copious amounts of Showbiz Sherbet and Big wads.Alledegly:o)

There seems to be no alternative except GNI and that has its well documented problems.


kyoto98 - 07 Aug'03 - 23:21 - 2 of 242


Did anyone ever switch to Etrade? I played around with their platform but was put off because in my experience their spreads were usually wider than CMCs and the market's.

Oh - and my CMC account stood at 0.00 for most of this week (and I wasn't the only one) because of some system problem that was never explained.


Sonofagun - 07 Aug'03 - 23:31 - 3 of 242


Iain-Treble's fat ginger Scottish arse should come quite easy to them then:))


Jeroo - 07 Aug'03 - 23:40 - 4 of 242


Post removed by moderator


Lancslad - 07 Aug'03 - 23:54 - 5 of 242


sonofagun,sorry mate,i know cmc (like other sites have there problems) having used cmc this last 12 months i have nothing but praise for them,when i have had a problem it has always got resolved,as for staff being rude i have found, treat them with respect,they will treat you with respect, simple answer if you dont like trading with the company,dont use them,best regards l.l.


MightyMicro - 07 Aug'03 - 23:55 - 6 of 242


I cannot and would not comment on CMC'c business practices: but if they need a team of rocket science qualified software enginners to build them a decent trading platform, I just might know where they could be found. :))


Jeroo - 08 Aug'03 - 00:01 - 7 of 242


Well their was nothing litigious in my comments MM - why was it removed?


moderator3 - 08 Aug'03 - 00:05 - 8 of 242


Please don't use bad language. It was a clever post and I would have edited it if I had been able to think of a sensible way to do so (MM is innocent).


Jeroo - 08 Aug'03 - 00:10 - 9 of 242


Sorry MM - I thought you were the moderator.

Moderator - With respect and for the record, not one single word of my previous post contained bad language but if you felt the need to remove it then I understand.

ps Are you a lurker?


MightyMicro - 08 Aug'03 - 00:32 - 10 of 242


Thank you Mr moderator3 whoever you are: that's the first time I've ever been accused of being innocent, if you follow me.

Jeroo: no problem at all. I'm not very moderate.

Cheers

MM


tofur - 08 Aug'03 - 03:22 - 11 of 242


Sonofagun- u must be a very good TRADER if so CMC will make every effort to make you leave i can not trade even 250 shares without being re quoted i am leaving CMC. CMC only wants mugs not traders who make money.


2Abbey - 08 Aug'03 - 07:38 - 12 of 242


I believe I have said before that if it is thought that CMC are not offering what you want then go elsewhere!

As an aside E Trade are apparently, within the next few weeks, launching a product similar to the GNI one, trading prices to be based upon commission. Could be what you are looking for!

Keep up the comments. 3am!!!!


Insider trader - 08 Aug'03 - 07:42 - 13 of 242 edit



CMC - Now where do you start.

1. Freeze ups on order tickets just as major moves are upon us.

2. Requotes if you are winning constantly and/or putting on too much 's per point.

3. Constant problems/bugs with their software.

The list goes on. I find now as traders that not only do we have to deal with the market movement, but also have to outsmart CMC as well, it's getting boring.
What we need is a new competitor to CMC, one who will have tight spreads but with none of the listed problems, they would make a fortune.
I wonder if Mike from AM and shares mag would be interested in such an idea?


Ruth - 08 Aug'03 - 07:45 - 14 of 242


I have the same problems as most here,had a another trader sat here with me last friday,had his account on one screen mine on the other,both went for a mks short,he got almost instant fill and mine took a lot longer,on this occassion it was ok as mks isnt a fast mover and i still got the price,but if it had been on something like gsk or rbs etc i would have almost certainly been requoted as the price would have moved as they took so long,

What i dont understand is,arent cmc goverened by anyone? surely there are codes of conduct to follow,could someone please advise accordingly,could set up an action group,even if its only for revenge,:-)ive got a card up my sleeve but will save that for a later day,going to have some real fun ,will post here when appropriate,:-)

Decent alternatives are few and far between thats the problem here,hope this new launch in September by another big player is as good as they promise,Gni too expensive for daytrading the liqiuid stocks,i can do 20 trades a day ,so thats a few grand a week in commission,so youve got to be pretty damn good to be able to cover those costs,(and i aint yet)and thats just on 10k trades,its pro rata after that,its great for stocks which arent as liquid ,to get inside the spread,and obviously wont do 20 trades a day on these sort of stocks,but i trade the liquid ones only during the day,i only use gni account for longer term holds,


Sonofagun - 08 Aug'03 - 08:27 - 15 of 242


Comments much appreciated folks-you do wonder sometimes whether it's just you who's being kept hanging-interesting to see who else has been affected?
Tofur-keeps me in smokes but theres a lot of room for improvement
Ruth-fascinating to have 2 trading side by side with differing reaction times!
You're right someone must have to police them but gone Awol:))
Jeroo I'm agog-must have been good?

Cmc care to comment yet?


baffled - 08 Aug'03 - 08:54 - 16 of 242


Sonofagun,
Surely you are not expecting cmc to comment just yet.
Be reasonable man!
It is only about 10 hours since your original post.
You are still 'on a yellow' and can't possibly expect a response until conditions change in their favour.


Robb - 08 Aug'03 - 09:15 - 17 of 242


baffled - roflmao

Sonofagun - Very valid points imo. The platform is definitely less reliable recently and my orders are definitely taking longer most of the time than they used to. Orders hang and freeze the platform and then it is not possible to view the various blotters to find out what the hell happened without coming out and re-logging in. Had reason to talk to them recently and got nowhere. They weren't rude or abusive but would not budge on something that I had never experienced before in three years and felt was very unreasonable.

It reinforced the view that CMC as an organisation are out to screw you at every opportunity. Its a bit like swimming in a river where you know there are pirahnas - it makes you very wary and really you shouldn't be surprised if at some point the situation turns ugly very quickly. Losing accounts make them money. Winning accounts cost them money. Remember that and you will be mindful of their motivation. They have their uses but I would think that most here will understand that there is nothing free about dealing with cmc.

I will be gobsmacked if they reply with anything constructive.

Regards
Rob


Insider trader - 08 Aug'03 - 09:26 - 18 of 242 edit



Agree 100% Rob.

Like this morning, it took me three attempts to log on, also in the very recent past, they would show no charts until 9ish, hmmmm, I wonder why?
Surely it's not because that's the best time for scalping?!

As far as their bar and candlestick accuracy goes, what a joke, I have never seen so many false ones in one site, ever!

Ruth, I think you maybe interested in contacting the FSA if you have an ace on your side.

Always remember, nothing in life is for free.


Treblewide - 08 Aug'03 - 09:36 - 19 of 242


sonofagun---my dislike for CMC is well known however s/b's are all as bad as each other lets just say i have had some terrible experience of IG over the last week---some stuff you would not believe!

son---you work for them--are you juts trying to wind someone up with this thread, i am not trying be be cheeky here--just curious!

T

p.s i also know a company that could help them build a new system and we are better than MM's tardy bunch :-)


Iain - 08 Aug'03 - 09:44 - 20 of 242


That`s Interesting if its true Treble.Sonogun,your call.


shogun - 08 Aug'03 - 09:57 - 21 of 242


maybe cmc have answered in the form of moderator3 ? (who knows)

my main gripe with cmc is slow fills on stocks i play alot and silly requotes and they can be very cunning with the requotes one they court me out on was spw price was 345.5 and the requot was 355.75 i took it thinking it was .25p higher
only to discover it was 10.25p higher i checked the trades tape and at no time had a fill even close to 355.75 been carried out that day, its the requotes that get me especially in the mornings,
generally i have no problems with cmc but please stop giving me silly requots 10-15p away from the current price ,

i think cmc should read there own sales bumph "we dont care if you win or loose" thats a laugh,talk about mis selling,


Bullshare - 08 Aug'03 - 09:59 - 22 of 242


iain. No way was the moderation to do with a 3rd party.. Moderator 3 removed a very mild posting but the way it was composed(quite clever really) created an obscenity.



MightyMicro - 08 Aug'03 - 10:24 - 23 of 242


Treble:

Cheeky b*gg*r :)

MM


Vivid - 08 Aug'03 - 10:25 - 24 of 242


I second all of the comments above - the biggest problem is fills being held.

In the last 20 trades I have done 18 of them were held for as much as 60 seconds ( even if there is plenty of stock on level 2 to fill the order ) then re-quoted with the price moving the wrong way. It is so blatant. If you are trading well and get the turning points, Steal for Free are holding trades to make sure you loose out. If you ring to complain they just say We are very busy which is why the fills are slow
Rubbish, they are never slow when its moving in your favour they fill in a shot.



Sonofagun - 08 Aug'03 - 10:35 - 25 of 242


Baffled:) (Still on yellow by the way!)

Insider/Robb/Abbey- The picture's beginning to build & its like The Scream!
What worries me most is the frequency with which it's happening-daytraders need to be in & out in a flash or it's a waste of time-Selftrades quicker at the moment!

Treble-I've had to have words with you before you great hairy Kiltie-it's all your fault anyways going upsetting them all the time,now they're taking it out on us-that long winning spree of yours didn't help either!:)))

Iain-I'd be in Copa Cabana with thigh rolled Havanas & retired by now!:)
That wasn't you trading alongside Ruth was it?


Treblewide - 08 Aug'03 - 10:49 - 26 of 242


sfg---lol
T


tofur - 08 Aug'03 - 12:35 - 27 of 242


LET'S GIVE BIG BROTHER FSA SOME WORK.IF WE ALL WRITE TO FSA CMC MIGHT END UP WITH PAINFUL ARSE.


CC - 08 Aug'03 - 13:19 - 28 of 242


This will probably come over as I'm defending cmc but that's not my intention.

There is no point getting upset about their actions - it has happenned before in about February and before that in about October. When they are ready they will ease up.
As I understand it they are not regulated by the fsa nor are they a member or regulated by the lse. As such they are well within their rights to quote whatever price they like and they are not therefore bound by the volume on level2.

It is a commercial world - if you don't like them use someone else - there are lots of alternatives.

I'm suffering like everyone else and my profits this week are only about 75% of what they would have been without these antics - can I claim a record for 10 minutes for a requote. Have to say though that fins seem to have deteriorated as well - finding that some of my quotes are taking up to 3 minutes and their price is no longer always dependent on the order book even when volume present.

What really frustrates me with both is the erratic fill time - if it was say consistently bad at say 30 seconds at least you could anticipate and trade around this - as it stands I have no idea whether my trades will be less than 5 seconds, 30 seconds, 3 minutes or "cancelled" or "technical error". Not good.


shogun - 08 Aug'03 - 13:26 - 29 of 242


the trouble with big bro FSA is that he is lily livered,and a joke ,


snappy - 08 Aug'03 - 13:33 - 30 of 242


I find them pretty good although I used to find the web based java trading platform used to slow down and become unusable for a few minutes at a time but since switching to MM5 no problems.

Yes I have had the occasional requote in times of a fast moving quote but the majority of the time I get the ticket price. I tend to use a lot of limit orders rather than market orders.

CMC are regulated by the FSA as is each and every financial service company that operates in the UK.

As an intermediary customer of CMC you will have waived your right to the financial ombudsman scheme operated by the FSA.

If you have a complaint you should put it in writing to CMC, even if you were classified as a private investor by CMC you would still need to put a complaint into writing and allow them to address it before contacting the FSA.


Iain - 08 Aug'03 - 13:58 - 31 of 242


Sonogun.Lol.No it wasnt me.I was making the tea and toast for them both!I burnt that:-)
Yes:Im Ruths "Gimp"


Maggot - 08 Aug'03 - 18:32 - 32 of 242


Snappy is correct - you MUST address CMC first. They are regulated by the FSA -it is on their literature. You can complain to the FSA Ombudsman if either their reply is unsatisfactory to you, or if they have not replied within eight weeks. CMC will tell you how to complain to the Ombudsman.

Personally, the site freezing up is my main problem, but that might be my computer. Try dealing with other SB companies and you will, at least, see some advantages of dealing with CMC, one being the quick loading (I've had no problem yet) and the other the tiny spreads. I have two other accounts with SB cos, but almost always use CMC now.

I can understand why they have to re-quote - if dozens of people want to sell(or short) the same share and there are not that number of shares on the bid at that price, then someone has to be given another price. It's the same with buying shares - you can't always guarantee getting them at the price that was on the screen a second before.

PS. I recently complained to the Ombudsman regarding an insurance company, prepared the case myself, and the result went in my favour. But I would not even contemplate complaining about a spreadbetting company without getting expert advice on what was considered acceptable in the share market and what is physically possible regarding the computers and dealers.

Sorry to appear awkward, but you asked for comments!


Sonofagun - 08 Aug'03 - 20:52 - 33 of 242


Iain-you'll be joining the parachute jump then:)) Ruth's got big Cahones, I hate heights!

Maggott & Snappy-much appreciate the comments-trying to form an overall picture here & shame Cmc into behaving more reasonably-the haven't got enough shares argument I find hard to believe in such liquid stocks as Barc & Lloy.

As far as complaining to Ombudsmen is concerned I agree-it would be a last resort & 1 that I don't rule out-it would have to be a concerted effort & we would need really good advice.
I did it with the pensions ombudsman who ruled in my favour & ordered the maximum fine he could without risking having to go to the High Court. If this had happened I would have had to drop out unless he was funding which is not often the case.

Some reassurance would be nice CMC as many people have been upset in some shape or form-have the Courtesy to come back to us please.


Vivid - 11 Aug'03 - 10:56 - 34 of 242


They seem to be up to a new trick today - been trading GSK and 3 times in 2 minuites I hit the button to sell at the quoted price of 1187 and each time the fill was held and then requote at 1185 when the level 2 price had never changed. Eventually got out at 1186 when the Bid on L2 was still 1187. On a fast stock this is an impossible platform to trade.

Dave


Sonofagun - 11 Aug'03 - 12:06 - 35 of 242


Vivid-found that before with GSK & its not clever
Seems to depend very much on the share-have been playing different ones altogether Friday & today & no probs so far.

Maybe they don't like you hammering the same shares all the time but somehow I doubt it...


Cloudbase - 12 Aug'03 - 00:15 - 36 of 242


Sonofagun.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, i used to trade SVT
a lot and was by far my best earner, then they started re-quote,
held ticket all the usual tricks. They would let you open a trade
no problem but trying to close it well in profit was a laugh.
I found they would often close it at the MM5 price if you phoned and once
traded simultaneously, phone trade accepted MM5 requoted 11 points.
Moved on to trading RB. and never had a requote, but scale into positions
Max. 10 at a time.


Insider trader - 12 Aug'03 - 09:50 - 37 of 242 edit



Sdeal4Free needs to be looked in to, I carried out a little experiment and the result was expected. Try betting small amounts (1-10pp) and the orders goes through. Now try larger size bets (10-50pp) and sit back and watch the computer freeze up, requotes, the usual tricks. Now try (100-200), lol, you may as well not bother.


Sonofagun - 12 Aug'03 - 11:57 - 38 of 242


Insider-Absolutely! Anything over 2000 gets the bird unless its VOD. I tried reducing to 250's & it helps but can even have probs with some of them

Cloudbase-Interesting you've found that as well-trouble is panic's usually over by the time you get through on the phone:))

Strikes me we at least need guarantees that say 1-2000 will go through automatically at the quoted spread


Big Al - 12 Aug'03 - 12:08 - 39 of 242


Insider - if wanting a large position I often fill it with a few small bets when I know they'll not fill the big one. Once had a dealer immediately come online and tell me I was taking advantage of the system. It has been obvious to me for some time that computers automatically fill small trade sizes and big ones get referred.

They only got back what they dish out IMO. They tell you this, that and the next thing about size of order book at that price, etc, etc, but at the end of the day they do NOT hedge everything in the market, so that's complete and utter b****x.

Personally, I'm finding myself using them less and less. Much of that has to do with the type of trading I'm now doing, i.e. SEAQ's, and it probably won't be long before I'm done with them altogether.

Al


Jeroo - 12 Aug'03 - 13:22 - 40 of 242


Big Al -Snap! I do (did) the same until they messaged me via the chat, asked me to call them and told me my account was being monitored. LOL


Treblewide - 17 Aug'03 - 19:34 - 41 of 242


i am undecided whether or not to close my CMC accounts.....IB is night and day to CMC however still want the advantage of not paying CGT so i am thinking of keeping one open for longer term dow trades where a 5 point spread does not really matter....

am i right in thinking that they take 2 points off of you for rolling over a bet on the daily dow cash to the next day???
T


Cloudbase - 18 Aug'03 - 18:21 - 42 of 242


Well they've excelled even their usual tricks now, they've greyed out
the place order button on the order ticket to stop me closing or opening new positions. LoLLLLLL

edit...its back now lol.


Sonofagun - 18 Aug'03 - 21:32 - 43 of 242


Yeah-still doing it-got the old yellow ticket hanging for 7 minutes again today-bloody farce sometimes & blow me always a crucial time.

Do you close the ticket & not know whether the cancel has taken or then find they've decided to accept the order despite everything ie when it's in their favour! Hell, I could have done 7 or 8 orders in that time.
Wait till they come to one of the traders meets,if they dare,the bloke will get fried alive:))))


Jeroo - 18 Aug'03 - 21:53 - 44 of 242


Has anyone cut and pasted this thread yet and sent it to the crooks?

You know 99% of their staff give the others a bad name.


Sonofagun - 19 Aug'03 - 22:36 - 45 of 242


They're still bloody doing it-what a nerve
Buy order this afternoon Hbos-hanging yellow ticket-press cancel cause of 3min delay-not once but 3 times-then they confirm the order

CMC you are sh1t & soon I'm going to have you if you keep this up-you will be investigated & it's not just me-You have been warned!


Jumpin - 20 Aug'03 - 08:30 - 46 of 242


My positions are showing the same as previous days, my overnight positions have disappeared, winning ones of course!


Treblewide - 20 Aug'03 - 10:49 - 47 of 242



Jumpin - 20 Aug'03 - 12:20 - 48 of 242


Still not fixed yet!!

(edit at 15:35, still no change!)


Jumpin - 21 Aug'03 - 11:49 - 49 of 242


Well today another problem.. had to wait for order then when I eventually do get it... it has been done twice, within 20 secs of each other and I didn't touch any buttons or get screen to cancel/go ahead or do another trade either.

Price was that favourable either of course.. 3p difference in 20 secs between the two orders!


Jeroo - 26 Aug'03 - 12:39 - 50 of 242


Here go ... I have had an order stuck on yellow for nearly 10 MINUTES! I had to call them to WAKE THEM UP. The service is so poor it's beyond a joke to trade their platform even with the small amount of business I now put through them. Long gone are the days when I used to use them exclusively. I think the time will come when they will come when only amatuers will trade with them - presumably, this is what they want.


Sonofagun - 26 Aug'03 - 13:08 - 51 of 242


Jeroo,
As a matter of interest, was it 1 of your regular favourites you tried to trade? I have been swappping around a bit & less probs seems to be the result.
The worst thing is the not knowing whether the trade has taken & the fact that it stops you trading anything else at crucial times.


Jeroo - 26 Aug'03 - 13:58 - 52 of 242


**** DEALING THROUGH CMC INVOLVES SIGNIFICANT DELAYS ****

I moved on from my regular *bread and butter* trades but I am still held until it suits them. I have considerably scaled down the number of trades I put through them and so the delays are no longer to much of a problem for me, just more of an irritation. I'd rather Deal4Real than Deal4Free.

I'd say that many more will realise what most others now see - that the CMC are a PANTOMIME OUTFIT.

CMC: EVERYBODY IS LAUGHING AT YOU.


sonic blue - 26 Aug'03 - 22:35 - 53 of 242


why is it that these peeeps wont evwr answer the phone after a good spike up strange the delay is is up to i minute enough time for the pull off to be complete ..this is not fair play....


Jeroo - 28 Aug'03 - 21:03 - 54 of 242


If CMC were an honest company then they would display the size that they are willing to trade beside each EPIC in their MM software. They could use the order book bid size and offer size or a standard size they are willing to take. Failing that, CMC are not worth the trouble to trade with.


Sonofagun - 01 Sep'03 - 20:26 - 55 of 242


Bloody cheek of it- double batards send me a free copy of Money am & why-so I can vote for them in the annual awards! Go stick it where the sun don't shine or maybe I'll just slag em some more:))))


Mr Euro - 01 Sep'03 - 21:02 - 56 of 242


Who's laughing at who? Who still uses the crooks IG, Fins and CMC? I repeat who's laughing at who? Until you vote with your feet and they lose business (hopefully go out of) then they will continue their antics.


Treblewide - 01 Sep'03 - 22:30 - 57 of 242


I agree with Mr Euro---using them less and less--only for longer term trades that I do not want to pay CGT on.

I came to the conclusion epsecially on fast moving stuff like the dow that it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to consistently make money--hence the move to direct access.

If you are making money with CMC on the dow---you will make about 40% more with another platform ie DA.....price skews...massive spreads....requotes....randomly taking money from your account...not answering the phone when busy.....

why give them money?

only using them for longer term position like SAP and Gold
i wish i had moved years ago
T


Jeroo - 02 Sep'03 - 11:59 - 58 of 242


Treble - IB account being processed as I write ... but like you, I have practically ceased trading with CMC. I now put nearly everything through GNI.

Son - I've sent off my Shares Award form and CMC rated bottom in every category I ticked. Yaboosucks to them. It's a shame because 2 years ago and pre-MM5, their platform was good. Now it's just plain dreadful.


axdpc - 02 Sep'03 - 12:08 - 59 of 242


Mr Euro, who would you recommend? GNI and IB sounds popular ... ??


Ruth - 02 Sep'03 - 19:07 - 60 of 242


Jeroo,yep the cheek of it,sent me a free copy in and said it had to be back in by the 5th sep,its gone back alright,with the same as you,bottom category ticked in every case,no shame have they :-)


Mr Euro - 02 Sep'03 - 19:46 - 61 of 242


Axdpc - IB for me, good luck.

There are ways to sting the SB's, or should I say were. I found a way until they closed the loop. Haven't found another way, yet.


axdpc - 02 Sep'03 - 20:11 - 62 of 242


Mr Euro, thanks. I never knew there were ways :-)



TomL - 02 Sep'03 - 20:26 - 63 of 242


Treb,

Who are "DA"? Cheers,

Tom.


Treblewide - 02 Sep'03 - 20:35 - 64 of 242


Tom---DA means Direct Access (ie trading futures contrcats)
T


Twotanks - 02 Sep'03 - 22:34 - 65 of 242


CMC just hiked the Dow after hours to 9566 then dropped it back to 9533 - I wonder how many stops were hit?


Insider trader - 03 Sep'03 - 18:10 - 66 of 242 edit



*CMC (sdeal 4 free) are a spread betting firm, that means they create their own market.*

Now, if you choose to play by their rules, that's up to you, you have a choice.
Just think about it, we who use S4F is only to avoid paying tax on winnings, but you see that is where we have all been going wrong, you can earn more including paying your taxes by playing the real markets, at the real market prices, none of these spikes that take out stops (who wins there, tut, tut S4F), none of the requotes game, dodgy accounting, dodgy ticket fills, dodgy charts, the list goes on.
Someone on ADVFN (spit) once said S4F want you to win, what a load of twaddle!

Who knows of any bookies that want you to win?

They have it made.

*They control the whole market, that's why 95% of punters lose*.

Take the bull by the horns and do your own thing, it's your choice, I wish you luck as it's hard enough to make decent money with out all the fun and games caused by the spread betting companies.


axdpc - 03 Sep'03 - 19:45 - 67 of 242


Insider trader, bravo, well said!

Many punters don't realise the hidden conflict of interest until it is too late
and still don't know who are the good guys. I asked this question several
times to various people over the past months ... who would you recommend?
(i.e. no conflict on interest, good integrity etc).


CC - 04 Sep'03 - 10:02 - 68 of 242


I think the scenario is quite simple with cmc - you will know when they no longer want your business.

Certainly this has happened to me over the last 2 months. More and more often I look at my days trading and find I would have done better if I used a broker.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with them if you want to learn this trade - it is possible to earn a living off them but there just comes a point when it is easier to look elsewhere


shogun - 04 Sep'03 - 15:59 - 69 of 242


Advertisement
deal4free.com customers traded 2,194,290 CFDs last year. Guess how much we made in commission? Absolutely nothing. At deal4free.com we won't charge you a penny in commission, no matter how often you trade. So is it any wonder our customers trade so many CFDs every year? why we make our money by skewing the price and holding orders until the mkt moves in our favour,also we have been known to give silly requotes but come on you guys carn't you take a joke. CMC Group Plc. Regulated by the FSA.
Click here to learn more and start trading commission free Share and Index CFDs. why be a muppet when you can be a mug punter,


robber - 04 Sep'03 - 16:51 - 70 of 242


Well as someone who has slagged them off in the past, I hate to say it but I got requoted twice in the space of a few seconds whilst selling BAY today. Both requotes were in my favour and matched exactly what the market was doing at the time!!!!!

This was trading by phone, I wonder if MM5 would have been so kind to me! hmmmmm


Neil


Hotei - 04 Sep'03 - 16:54 - 71 of 242


Robber I had a requote in my favour this morning on MM5, buying HBOS. Placed order at 726.5 and was requoted 725 - I was so surprised I nearly missed hitting the buy button in time !


axdpc - 04 Sep'03 - 17:17 - 72 of 242


robber, Hotei. Who is MM5?


robber - 04 Sep'03 - 17:21 - 73 of 242


marketmaker version 5 is CMCs trading platform.

Neil


Sonofagun - 05 Sep'03 - 23:52 - 74 of 242


Particularly sharp practice today from CMC-you can always tell from the number of comments on the Traders thread-first 15 mins is a nightmare & almost impossible to trade without them waiting to see which way the wind is blowing-
Why quote if you won't deal?

The sooner someone puts an end to this the better!
It would be interesting to know who is running it from CMC's end and whether the person changes on days like today?

Phone trading for me is a last resort & that's assuming you can get through-can't con their way out of it quite so easily -can take a long time for them to adjust the book so recording conversation might be helpful in case of misunderstandings:))


tofur - 10 Sep'03 - 01:00 - 75 of 242


CMC HAVE CHANGED THEIR STOP LOSS TO MINIUM 20 PTS ON US STOCKS.DO NOT WORRY CMC I WILL STILL KICK YOUR ARSE AS I DID TODAY $3500.


janeb - 12 Sep'03 - 15:59 - 76 of 242



janeb - 12 Sep'03 - 16:00 - 77 of 242


Hi, Im Jayne Banks and as part of the team at deal4free Im writing in response to the issues that youve raised in this thread across the last month or so.

Firstly Id like to point out that it is not usually our policy to engage in bulletin board conversations simply because the increasing proliferation of BBs means it is difficult for us to monitor all of them and respond to questions and issues raised through this medium fairly and consistently. We have a complaints procedure, and if there are any grievances you wish to raise then please contact our Compliance Department who will be happy to speak with you. If you wish to then progress the situation please send a letter or e-mail to our compliance department detailing your complaint.

However, further to reading your comments we would like to invite you to visit us at deal4free to discuss the issues you have raised with our Head of desks and Chief dealers. We understand that some of you are not located near London, and for this reason we would be more than happy to email the transcript of the meeting to any clients who wish to receive this. We would also welcome any questions you may wish to see covered in the meeting, so if you email these across to seminars@deal4free.com we can raise the questions on your behalf, and answer them at the event. We are flexible in terms of dates and times but as an initial proposal wed like to open our doors to you on Friday the 3rd of October at 3.00pm. If you send emails to the above address expressing your interest in attendance we can then confirm these details with you. We hope as many people as possible from MoneyAM can attend this seminar, and we look forward to receiving your questions and meeting you.


Iain - 12 Sep'03 - 16:26 - 78 of 242


Once they get you in there,You wont be coming out:)


Kayak - 12 Sep'03 - 16:32 - 79 of 242


So that's 20 fewer accounts on Monday morning :-)


axdpc - 12 Sep'03 - 21:36 - 80 of 242


Sounds like a fair offer. I guess the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Transparency in operations and practices are good for the SB/CFD industry and the punters.


Sonofagun - 12 Sep'03 - 22:07 - 81 of 242


Welcome Janeb:))
Finally, a Response!
Only taken a month & a bit:(( Not the best day a Friday 3pm London. Try not to go anywhere in rush hour.

Yes, I would love to come, might I suggest we change the date after consulting amongst ourselves. We give you a lot of business, we're fair minded, we just want to know the rules and know that they are fair & in our best interests.

You might care to throw in a lunch for those of us coming down from the North- give you a chance to get know us better:))

All comments gratefully received-your suggestions please folks much appreciated-me I'm a sheer amateur and need you pros for support-ie anyone who's expressed disgust at the service we've received from time to time.

Work to do here-suggest we make a list of questions which I will then compile into a letter-any preferred dates?-a Tuesday or Wednesday would be ideal for
me. Bullie can treat us in the evening at Mr Chow's!!


robber - 12 Sep'03 - 23:43 - 82 of 242


sorry I will not be able to make it all the way down to London for the meet however Im looking forward to the transcript.

My first question; Using MM5 how big does an order have to be to get rejected by your automatic system and passed on to one of your traders?

Neil


axdpc - 13 Sep'03 - 00:17 - 83 of 242


Sonofagon, thank for volunterring :-)

I will be interested in

(1) what CMC believes are the conflict of interests between
CMC business and clients ;
CMC business and CMC staff ;
Client and CMC staff.

(2) How CMC generate their income and how CMC staff are paid.
This will help to understand the extend of the conflict of interest.

(3) What are the common interests between CMC and clients?

The answer may well apply, to a lesser or greater extent, to other SB and CFD providers.



Bullshare - 13 Sep'03 - 07:21 - 84 of 242


JaneB; Very many thanks for taking the time to post on here and for coming up with a date for our users to visit CMC. I will try and pop along as well.


Mike


Big Al - 14 Sep'03 - 08:06 - 85 of 242


Now this is an interesting development. Thanks for being so brave JaneB! :-)

I wonder if I will be at home on the day in question as I'd love to get to this. Mind you, I would then be known to them and the odd "dubious" tactic I have employed might be lost to me. Tricky decision really. ;-))

Either way, I find it no worse than what we suffer in return - an eye for an eye and all that.

I think the main questions and troubles recently have been what appear to be blatant attempts to screw the client. The service has declined rapidly this year and/or the punters have made money from CMC, which they wish to reclaim. Some straightforward replies would be appreciated. Indeed, it may be the only way to change what has become a very fixed idea in every client's mind, not just on this BB, but many.

Al


Treblewide - 14 Sep'03 - 19:05 - 86 of 242


JaneB--very brave of you however it is too little too late for me...I have had running battles with CMC for years now.

The fundamental problem I have is you do not hedge most trades so you are directly competing against us traders---you will therefore always stack the odds in your favour...no point in dicsussing it. There are easier ways to make money than using CMC and i have no need to travel down to London to listen to you put "spin" on why you think it is legitimate to try to cheat us out of our money.

god I sound bitter!

:-)
T


Ruth - 14 Sep'03 - 21:43 - 87 of 242


Jane, now youre braver than me,made me giggle that they sent a female to respond to this thread, did they think you would win the sympathy vote of the male posters i wonder or did the big chiefs just simply not have the balls to stand up and be counted, i will try and make this meeting,sounds like it should be fun, anyone got a shotgun they want to borrow me :-)


axdpc - 14 Sep'03 - 22:31 - 88 of 242


Treblewide, no related to CMC but in general, I think the English should feel more anger, more often. It discourages scams, spins, lies etc. There are much
we can learn from American consumers - OK, not always good but more good than bad.


Sonofagun - 14 Sep'03 - 22:36 - 89 of 242


Ruth,will Sonof do?!
Any preferred dates?

Header seems to cover a lot of the points but will go through the thread & try to encompass other probs mentioned.

Bullshare-would be great if you can join us-we need a few pros behind us!!



Jeroo - 15 Sep'03 - 01:41 - 90 of 242


Well well. They just want to get you on their territoy and blind you with the science of their devious ways.

JayneB - You can see from the posts on this thread that traders are not at all happy with you and this will continue to be the case until they realise that CMC is not a good company to trade through. For the life of me, I can not see the point in trading through your company as the service I got from you after being forced to upgrade to MM5 was totally unaccecptable and boardered on criminal.

Why don't you just publish the size you are willing to accept as a trade by each EPIC and stop messing people around.

Someone here mentioned the proof of the pudding is in the eating, well I can tell you that I've already eaten as much of their *pudding* as I can and it's old and stale, just like their excuses.

A man does good business when he rids himself of a turd.


Ruth - 15 Sep'03 - 07:28 - 91 of 242


Son :-)
Jeroo, great post,order size shpuld be straight forward enough for them to implement, and also ide like a clock at the side ,to tell me if im going to have to wait 10 seconds or 2 mins for it to go through, the anticipation is a killer,a girl can do alot in those 1 min 50 secs difference, its the difference between a drink of tea or dehydration :-)


Mleung - 15 Sep'03 - 10:10 - 92 of 242


Hi Jayne, good to see you taking a step to look at the issues we raised here. I think it is in everyone interest to get these resolved. If the issues are down to conflict of interests at the end, then at least we know where we are and we will pack our accounts to go somewhere-else.

We need a honest and constructive dialog in the meeting to acknowledge the existence of the problem(s) and look for possible ways forward. It will be completely waste of time if CMC just blankly deny all accusations.

Please advise the firm date and time of the meeting on this board and I certainly will make time to attend if possible.

Mo


axdpc - 15 Sep'03 - 10:22 - 93 of 242


Does she has in-depth knowledge for an open discussion and enough authority to make promises? or is it going to be a bit like presentations to politicians?


Mleung - 15 Sep'03 - 10:46 - 94 of 242


No dis-respect to Jayne, I thought the Head of Desk and the Chief dealer would be attending too. Obviuosly it would show how serious they are if someone from CMC senior management can attend.


robber - 15 Sep'03 - 11:24 - 95 of 242


it would be good if one of their arrogant dealers would also attend and give a short explaination of what customer service means to them!


Big Al - 15 Sep'03 - 11:32 - 96 of 242


robber

WE know the answer to that!

;-)


Jeroo - 15 Sep'03 - 11:55 - 97 of 242


JayneB - Is it true that CMC stands for Criminally Malicious Corporation?

Caveat CMC Trader
Be under no illusion that CMC will change their working practices after they have invited you around to their place for a cosy chat. Far from it - Nothing will change unless they become more transparent in their dealings with you. For all intense and purposes, this means accepting a trade at the prices offered through MM5 or alternatively, by displaying the size. Nothing else will do as nothing else matters. If that were the case, I would consider going back to CMC but until then, my recommendation to others is: Stay away from using CMC.


extrovert - 15 Sep'03 - 12:35 - 98 of 242


Jeroo, CMC have had people round for a chat before and the service has still deteriorated


axdpc - 15 Sep'03 - 12:47 - 99 of 242


There biggest conflict of interest would be if the dealers are allow to trade
their own accounts and give quotes to clients.


Hotei - 15 Sep'03 - 14:28 - 100 of 242


I think CMC would better spend their time and money sending their dealers on a basic course on customer satisfaction and simple good manners. Complaints about CMC seem to fall into two categories - questions about their business practices and complaints about the way they treat their customers. I think the business practices are sometimes questionable (finding market spread is no longer being honoured on closing a deal, for example, or requoting when order book size is sufficient for a fill at quoted price) but I've learned to live with those and try to allow for them. Anyone who thinks this is going to change as a result of a meeting with CMC is living on cloud nine. What really gets me is the rudeness some of the dealers exhibit - I am always polite when I call in to question something and I resent being told I can always move my account if I'm not happy, rather than getting a satisfactory explanation (some of the dealers are fine, many are not). If I'm going to be screwed, I want it done with charm and a smile.

All that's happened here is that the semi-public nature of this thread has caused them to offer something to placate us - business practice won't change as a result. You get what you pay for - the name says it all.


axdpc - 15 Sep'03 - 14:41 - 101 of 242


Hotei,

"If I'm going to be screwed, I want it done with charm and a smile."

You are happy with ... as long as it comes with sugar-coated tranquilizer poisons !? Let me introduce you to some people I once went out of my way to
help ... they will be happy to find new victims.



Big Al - 15 Sep'03 - 14:51 - 102 of 242


Hotei

Good post.

We all realise the nature of a spreadbetter's business and can accept they are in it to screw the customer, but it is indeed the attitude of their staff which is 80% of the problem. No system is infallible, but that's always been their fallback and the conversation ends. You are presented with a fait accompli all the time and it never favours the client.

The other 20% is their inability to honour the quotes posted, which has got to be much more common.


Hotei - 15 Sep'03 - 14:54 - 103 of 242


axdpc - I guess I was trying to say, they are what they are, and I've learned to live with it, as I value the benefit of a reliable platform (it is reliable these days) and a free service. I just object to the rudeness.


axdpc - 15 Sep'03 - 15:57 - 104 of 242


Hotei, I know :-)


CC - 15 Sep'03 - 17:57 - 105 of 242


I have become sadly disappointed with this thread today.

CMC have made an open offer to discuss the issues with us yet it appears that a proportion of people wish to continue ranting rather than discussing this topic reasonably.

There are complaints here about cmc dealers attitude's but frankly if some of you are as aggressive / assertive on the phone as you are in writing I am not surprised at the response you get.

In addition I note some of you use practices which you know d4f don't like to get your orders through - if you don't play by their rules it's not surprising they try to get it back in other ways.

Let's get back to basics about what we want achieved out of this.
This is what I would like - I cannt go to London so I would be extremely grateful if some of this could be passed on.

1. Fill prices - we all know d4f insist on appropriate volume in the market however it is clear to me that d4f do some filtering with requotes to ensure that they do not get caught out by let us call them rogue prices. This is most prevalent early in the day.
I think if most of us are honest we can understand their business position on this.
However, we have all had examples where d4f take an extra bit on the spread when there is volume in the market. I would like to see this practice ceased or at least clarified.
What I need as a trader is to know what their rules are - it is sometimes apparent that if you trade very close to the volume you are requoted - do cmc dealers have a rule about this?

Could cmc exercise a bit more degree of sense over the volume rule.
Say l2 looks like this
1000 shares at 400.0
400 shares at 401.0
600 shares at 403.0
700 shares at 403.25
650 sharees at 403.5
700 shares at 403.75
500 shares at 404.0
At the moment if I ask for 900 shares I invariably get quoted 400.0 - surely 403.5 or 403.75 is reasonable


2. Fill times
My biggest gripe - a committment to a maximum fill time would be best.


3. Disappearing filled orders.
This has only happened to me once and to be fair the price I dealt at I knew to be an absolute bargain and not actually available in the market due to the 5% enforced auction rule but I feel it wrong that the order is simply removed from the blotter. A quick chat message would be reasonable pointing out why the order was not going to be honoured.


This is one of the very few occasions that cmc have said they will discuss matters. We had different complaints on adfvn when mm5 was released and cmc did resolve some of them.
Let's present them with a set of requests and see what we get.



Hotei - 15 Sep'03 - 18:24 - 106 of 242


CC - your gripes are very reasonable, and I agree with them. I hope someone presents them at the meeting. My biggest gripe is rudeness - I teat people with respect and civility and expect to be treated the same way, especially as a customer. I don't see why this is not a valid request - perhaps you could explain ?


janeb - 15 Sep'03 - 18:43 - 107 of 242



Thank you for your comments everyone.

Sonofagun - you've suggested that this date may not be suitable for you all, can I therefore leave it with you to email me (seminars@deal4free.com) with a proposed date which I can then confirm with yourself via email in the first instance, and then post the new date/time on this thread. I think as you suggest this will be the easiest approach so long as you're ok doing this.





CC - 15 Sep'03 - 18:47 - 108 of 242


Hotei,
I never intended to set out to encompass everybodies gripes just my own - personally I don't find the dealers to be rude but I am very very careful to give them no cause to be so. I do have experience of them being abrupt and in a hurry to get off the phone with me - I have always put this down to the pressures of the job and how many calls they have to take a day. By comparison have always found Fins to be much more user friendly and this certainly highlights the differences.

The attitude of the dealers certainly does seem to be an issue and should defintiely be raised. I do wonder how much of the issues with the dealers would go away if we got decent electronic fills. Win win that for cmc I would have thought - more automated trades equals less dealers employed equals more profit for cmc and more trades undertaken by us.


Treblewide - 15 Sep'03 - 19:02 - 109 of 242


I could not care less if dealers are rude or not--i used them as a trading platform not to get good chat on the phone what i do care about their prices and the reliability of the system....

CC --they scam us for years and then say they are willing to talk about it---forgive me if i do not bite their hand off.....if someone was breaking into my house and dipping my wallet do you think it is reasonable to fly down to London so they can justify it?

do not think so
but like the Murphy's!
T


TomL - 15 Sep'03 - 20:08 - 110 of 242


Janeb,

I should also like to add my thanks for posting your invitation to attend a "seminar" on the issues raised on this thread.
Nonetheless (if I may say so) it does seem to me that, if CMC is willing to offer a transcript by e-mail of the meeting on the issues raised (as clearly posted here), it would be no less appropriate for CMC's head dealers to post their answers here ahead of the meeting, to enable a more constructive agenda for that meeting.

Alternatively, if more privacy is required, an e-mail as offered of the proposed response AHEAD of the meeting. If CMC have a problem with that, then it would be helpful to know precisely why.

TomL.


Big Al - 19 Sep'03 - 12:40 - 111 of 242


Would it be too much to ask CMC to send out a proposed agenda for the meeting by email to clients and/or post it here. It might help in getting some semblance of order into this proposal.

We've had the offer, but it seems to have done little to calm the emotions and satisfy an extremely reasonable idea from CC.

Following the meeting, I agree with TomL regarding feedback.

Al


Lancslad - 19 Sep'03 - 13:59 - 112 of 242


having read the above posts i may be the odd man out but i have used cmc for about a year and in that time i have naver had a problem that has not got sorted, re dealers attitued, same again i may be the odd man out, but i have found the dealers fair and helpfull, my attitude is treat them with the repect you expect to be treated by, in fact they are better than some others i have used, and no i dont have any connection with cmc, as most of you know me, this is my oppinian of cmc,which i fealt i had to add.


Jumpin - 19 Sep'03 - 22:46 - 113 of 242


Had a chat window open the other day saying a dealer wanted to talk to me...

to say

"Boo"


!!


Is that a professional system?


Howard0181 - 20 Sep'03 - 07:34 - 114 of 242


Jumpin

I had that yesterday on my s/b account...it just said "boo".

This is a very interesting thread. When I get my chance later I will write my 2ps worth.


Sonofagun - 21 Sep'03 - 20:38 - 115 of 242


Jayne Banks-Janeb

I have deliberately not posted for the past week to see whether we would get a reaction to Tom L's post which I found most appropriate.

I have had a rethink on the topic & would like to know before investing in a visit what CMC's attitude is to the points in the header. To this can also be added:

1) Accuracy of Bar & Candlestick charts
2) Filling orders with small bet sizes-why is this wrong?
3) Evening spreads & quotes are a joke & make trading then impossible-do your staff just want the night off?
4) What is the order size for automatic thruput?
5) How do CMC generate their income & how does this differ between CFD's & Spread Betting?
6) Are CMC traders allowed to trade on their own behalf & is there a conflict of interest between CMC/Clients/Staff?
7) What interests do CMC & Customers have in common?
8) Can the automatic size of trade be indicated beside each epic?

Personally, I find MM5 a good platform but I do not use your charts
The main areas of conflict remain:

A) Delays in filling orders at the current price

B) Keeping customers hanging & not allowing them to cancel orders

C) Attitude on the phone by some of your dealers/staff to perfectly reasonable
requests/questions


I would be grateful if you could ask your MD to reply in person to these various points on this site before a meeting is arranged.


TomL - 21 Sep'03 - 21:18 - 116 of 242


Sonofagun,

You have read my mind. Inevitable conclusions must be drawn on CMC remaining silent. Hopefully, a genuine response will now be forthcoming. Good and, most important, I believe fair points in your post.

TomL.


jules99 - 21 Sep'03 - 22:07 - 117 of 242


Sonofagun,

I have read the mail/s concerning the negatives of CMC as a brokerage firm with ref to SB/CFD trading, I was about to start trading with them in near future, however I'm somewhat put-off now , so can you please advise which Brokers would you recommend for trading CFD's, I dont wish to join CMC if that is type of service that is offered or rather given to customers...

GNI and IFX I hear to be good...Are they any better/worse?

Any comments apprectiated ..

Ta.
Jules99.


Sonofagun - 21 Sep'03 - 22:31 - 118 of 242


Jules,

Don't be put off trading with CMC yet-trading platform is fine & no one has yet convinced me there is a better alternative for internet trading subject to the above points-they all have their flaws but MM5 works most of the time.
Yes, they try to skim you & we are hoping to get a satisfactory reply out of them-they are not customer friendly but you can usually get the spread.
Someday, someone will offer the above & value your custom & of course we will switch unless CMC change their ways. 1 attraction is 20 times leverage!!

I don't use GNI because of the cost-min 25 a trade-ie buy/sell 1000 shares = 5 points-yes you can get inside spread sometimes & the biggest draw is being able to play the auctions which you can't with CMC.
If you read last weeks posts, there were a lot of probs with GNI platform
In my view it's for people who really know what they're doing & are rich:))-service is very customer oriented of course!


jules99 - 21 Sep'03 - 22:52 - 119 of 242


sonofagun..(funny name btw..)...

Thanks for comments...

SFGun - Am I right in saying if a customer opens an a/c and places 15k into opening a CFD trading a/c then its 20 X 15K allowing upto 300k of trading ?

Do GNI dont offer this? perhaps 5X..?

I have never traded via internet, prefer to use the ole telephone, in time I may change for the moment I am content with Traditional method..(don't laugh..)


- course you would have to dumb if you cannot back that up, and have no money managment/trading skills, but 20x..thats a bit like in the states I think...

IG Index also do CFD's..any better/worse than Cmc.com?

Ta.

Jules99.






Jeroo - 21 Sep'03 - 23:09 - 120 of 242


www.selftrade.co.uk deal CFD's. They charge a commision of 0.20% and their service is excellent. Their web site has all the answers.


Jumpin - 21 Sep'03 - 23:13 - 121 of 242


jules99, with GNI it depends what you are trading, some shares need more than others.

10 to 40% from what I understand


Sonofagun - 21 Sep'03 - 23:59 - 122 of 242


Jules-nothing wrong with missionary position!
Mother was not keen on SOAB:)

Yep-300k's correct for ftse 100 & quite a few others I believe-need to be careful mind-hate to think what a Sept 11 could do if you were fully margined long! That's why I prefer to short

No experience IG-suspect worse from what I've read but may be wrong
Ruth etc seem to use CMC for quickies & cost-CMC=right formula/wrong attitude!


jules99 - 22 Sep'03 - 01:18 - 123 of 242


Sonofagun...

thats useful info...shorting is more useful, perhaps opening up 2/3 acounts would be useful, and work who gives best service and price and fastest execution ...and determine from there...It would piss me*** if they started to mess me around with prices, quotes. Brokers I had experience with such I just move on...they dont deserve my money.

Just as you go to a restaurant, it could be 'Posh' it could be a 'Diner'...treat you well and you'll come back with more freinds and family.

IT'S very simple...thats how reputations are made...

Treat you with 'disrespect' or Service or food is not upto 'expected standards' you 'WILL' go else where...There's a lot of competition out there' so if they want market share and new business CMC had better start to make BIG changes in their services or Reputation and Business is going to suffer big time....Just Like TD Waterhouse, losing many a clients and lost many over last 3 years...

Ta.

Jules99.







Big Al - 22 Sep'03 - 06:48 - 124 of 242


jules99

I use GNI as well as CMC (currently infrequently). Margins at GNI vary from 10% for the big stocks down to 40% for much smaller mkt caps. The advantage I see for me is the ability to trade right down to a minimum mkt cap of 50m, which, I believe, no-one else currently offers. Of course, if you're pure SETS and trading <10k lots, than the charging structure may be an issue.

On service, I doubt you'll find a better mob than GNI. It is always first rate and they provide very useful reports. I guess you get what you pay for as with other things in life!!

Al


Ruth - 22 Sep'03 - 07:31 - 125 of 242


Son, :-)quickies? please elaborate :-)
the problem with cmc is,they basically are unbeatable for scalps, so even if they scew you a point here and there, youre still beter off than with any of the others, but its the anticipation thats a killer,not knowing from one day to the next how fast or slow you will get a fill,when they are good,they are very good, when they are bad ,they are shocking,:-(, must admit last week was ok,had the odd requote,and its bloody annoying when u hit the place order button and you then seee the price going on the order book, the times ive shouted and screamed,dont know what my neighbours think im doing as im trading from my bedroom as most of u are aware :-)
gni are great for auctions and spikes, but generally to dear for scalping,and then youve got to hope to get a fill to get inside the spread, the number of times ive put orders in the book and the price almost gets there and then races away is a killer too, and part fills, they are a bloody nuisance, why does some inconsiderate sod pick on me :-)then u have to mess around readjusting your price or face the min commission, but at least they are friendly at gni, the dealers are always,polite and courteous,first class back up,
so its back to the swings and roundabouts senario,
one day another big firm will see theres another opportunity in between the 2 of the above services, ide be more than happy with that, believe capital spreads were launching in September, but ive seen nothing yet :-(


Jumpin - 22 Sep'03 - 08:37 - 126 of 242


I tried to place a trade with them this morning.. for 750 equivalent worth of shares ... kept me waiting and waiting and waiting... then I was told I had to phone trade!!!

Ridiculous to be not be able to trade instantly for that amount!!!!!

Glad I got GNI for the 'important' trades!


tyketto - 22 Sep'03 - 09:38 - 127 of 242


jules 99,
I am currently using ETrade for CFD's.
3K. min. to start.X10 equities.X5 indices.
9.95 e.w.
If you do 30 trades in 3months(I think) you get L2 free.
The site is a bit fragmented at the moment(Seperate log on for
equities and other functions) but they seem to be progressing
toward an integrated site.
Good auto CFD trading Platform(you can also trade on an 08000
No.Chart package awkward,as I've not been able to correlate the
numerals for the settings to real value(No help on the phone and
the site help isn't very illuminating.)
Its had two or three short outages in the last couple of months,
but not what I would call critical times, as I gather from the bb.
Very seldom market spread. Usually .25p outside on the up or down
side.Sometimes both or wider.
I,ve found it an ok site to learn,Not really economic with the small
punts Im doing but that saves me being burnt.
Hope this helps.
mac


jules99 - 22 Sep'03 - 14:11 - 128 of 242


MAC and Big Al thanks for your insights...very interesting points...

I am coming up to a conclusion with the points raised on this thread and may jot them down later this week, btw as mentioned I will also attend cfd training course tmorr...




DocProc - 22 Sep'03 - 20:12 - 129 of 242


Hmmm? Was that BA "pop up" a result of clicking on this thread? Hmmm?


Sonofagun - 22 Sep'03 - 20:36 - 130 of 242


Would make a nice change from the Dagenham Dustbin:-))


Sonofagun - 23 Sep'03 - 19:34 - 131 of 242


Come on CMC-if there is going to be a meeting you might at least show some good intent???

You are still trying to shortchange us by not letting us trade at the prices shown particularly early morning. You are also keeping us hanging & that's the whole point! This is totally unacceptable on orders up to 4-5000 shares.

Until you start showing us some sign of good faith what hope is there?
Just who decides which orders get vetted & why? Are they trading on their own account or what??

An explanation & a reaction would be courteous!


richesboy - 23 Sep'03 - 19:59 - 132 of 242


The explanation is simple. We wan't to make money so we choose the company with the tightest spreads. Unfortunately they want to make money, infact more money than would be considered reasonable even in business terms so they make dam sure that if the market is moving in our favour they take that profit from us and say "well if you don't mind, in fact if you do mind we could'nt care less take this price or go to hell or another sb" I'll be using other sb companies in the future cos these guys are **?#s!!!!!!!


Insider trader - 24 Sep'03 - 11:18 - 133 of 242 edit



So I see CMC have had to acknowledge this thread as it has a negative impact on their business.

I would like to add a few questions to this smoothing over meeting that will be arranged.

1. Why offer a charting service that produces inaccurate signals, candlesticks, bars, and crossovers?

2. Why offer quotes if you have no intention of honouring them?

3. Why bother to offer a toggle chat which you take too long to answer?

4. Why do you like to spike up and knock out stops, is business really that bad?

5. Why pretend to care, when your actions show us all that you do not?

Like I said before, there's easy ways to make money trading through straight on line Brokers including paying your taxes.



Bullshare - 24 Sep'03 - 12:33 - 134 of 242


I have been chatting with CMC and I will get back with some alternative dates to go round and meet the team with you all. Should be useful for everyone concerned I believe.

M


Bullshare - 24 Sep'03 - 14:34 - 135 of 242


Ok; Jayne has sent me some dates:

CMC London Office Visit:

Thursday 23rd Oct - 1.00pm
Friday 24th Oct - 1.00pm
Thursday 30th Oct - 1.00pm
Friday 31st Oct - 1.00pm

If a Saturday would be better the following dates are possible

Saturday the 11th of Oct 11.00am (or any time really)
Saturday the 18th of Oct
Saturday the 25th of Oct

There will be lunch and drinks provided for visitors and a chance to have a more informal chat.

Perhaps we should leave the choice of date to Sonafagun as he prompted this offer from CMC and it would be great if he could head up the 'entourage'.

Hopefully this will be a good two way discusion .

Mike



Haystack - 24 Sep'03 - 15:11 - 136 of 242


Does anyone still remember the six people who were invited to Etrade's offices in Cambridge to discuss problems with their system a few years ago. The result was no improvement of even the slightest degree, followed by the creation of ADVFN by Bullshare et al. Is this a portent of things to come?


Bullshare - 24 Sep'03 - 15:45 - 137 of 242

CFD's:

GNI | http://www.gni.co.uk/
Once you?ve got used to using Level 2 and trading at prices between the market spread, you won?t want to go back to being told what prices you can deal at and paying big spreads. Fed up with paying wide spreads? Fed up with prices being skewed against you? Fed up with being requoted?

E*Trade | http://www.etrade.co.uk/
- Streaming, instantly tradeable prices in size (VWAP)
- Total transparency: no waiting, no re-quotes, no skewing & no reading
- Simple, fair, flat-rate 9.95 commission on CFDs & Indices. https://accounts.uk.etrade.com/cfd_page.htm?GXHC_GB_locale=en_GB&GXHC_ghome=visitor:en_GB:GB&

SelfTrade | http://www.selftrade.co.uk/
- Trade CFDs on Margin - pay a fraction of the contract value
- Trade on real-time prices - no charges built in to spread
- Go Long or Short - stay in the market even if prices fall
- No Stamp Duty - more money for you!
- Guaranteed Stops - limit your risk
- Hedge your Portfolio - CFDs can help protect your portfolio
- Product Range - access to Global Stocks and Indices http://www.selftrade.com/uk/

Deal4Free | http://www.cmcplc.com/
- Trade CFDs on Margin - pay a fraction of the contract value
- Ability to go either Long or Short
- No Stamp Duty for CFD's
- Delay's, regular re-quotes and poor charting
- Orders often filled when the price moves against you
- Pull your hair out and lose your money with them http://www.moneyam.com/TradersRoom/ShowPostList?fID=1&tID=1478


Futures:

GNI | http://www.gni.co.uk/
GNI touch Futures allows you to deal in futures and options on global markets via a browser-based trading platform, giving you very rapid execution, the means of displaying live prices and market depth on your selected markets, and the ability to trade in a professional manner from anywhere in the world. http://www.gni.co.uk/brochure/fuintro.asp

InteractiveBrokers | http://www.interactivebrokers.co.uk/
U.K. Stocks: 0.1% of Stock Value
U.K. Futures: FTSE- 1.70/Contract
USF's- ?2.50/Contract
U.K. FTSE Index Options: 1.70/Contract
Euro Stocks: 0.1% of Stock Value
Euro Options & Futures: ?2.00/Contract

Jeroo

Well put.

please may i just ask.....are these 'their' words from their 'ads' or have you summarised (and provided appropriate critique as necessary)what is available from each broker

in any case, very helpful.

t.

re: "are these 'their' words from their ads":

"Deal4Free | http://www.cmcplc.com/
- Trade CFDs on Margin - pay a fraction of the contract value
- Ability to go either Long or Short
- No Stamp Duty for CFD's
- Delay's, regular re-quotes and poor charting
- Orders often filled when the price moves against you
- Pull your hair out and lose your money with them"

I think they need to re-think their advertising strategy!

(or, less facetiously, it was the latter of your options :-) )

What I don't understand about all this, if D4F is so bad why do people keep using them ?

I can guess the answer - they do have the tighest spreads and hence the cheapest form of trading.

Those looking to open an account with one of the other companies might find my experiences of interest. Up until recently I had two accounts - one with Finspreads and the other with GNI.

Finspreads - certainly no re-quotes. If you press the buy/sell button within the allotted time I have never known the trade not to go through. I certainly like their FTSE 100 (stocks) rolling cash bets - brilliant. But - isn't there always a negative. I can wait twenty seconds or more for a quote at times and the quote is sometimes outside of their market price + 0.1% even though there are heaps of stock on the SETS order book.

GNI - it certainly is good to be able to get inside the spread - SETS stocks that is - or is it ? It certainly isn't so good when the price is moving away from you and you have to either jump the spread and still pay a 50 minimum round trip charge or give up. I tend to trade the large caps - spreads are frequently 0.2%, 0.1% or less - a 0.5% minimum commission in these electronically enlightened times - come on GNI get real. Also not so good is when the site is down and it's been up and down quite a lot recently. And then there is SEAQ stocks - perhaps we shouldn't mention them ! Inside the spread - immediate fills - I don't think so !

I decided to open another account for a trial period. D4F and ETrade caught my eye. Having noted the ongoing problems with the D4F trading platform and the growing mountain of complaints piling up on various BB's I decided to give ETrade a try.

It possibly would have been easier to join MI5 than actually open an account with ETrade. But once up and running with the 19.90 round trip and prices matching the SETS order book I am happy to say the least. Although of course there has to be the odd gripe. Like all of these sites it does suffer from periods of downtime - just when you don't need it. The 0.1% minimum spread seems to grow a tad at times - rounding does not seem to be their speciality. No requotes - well, perhaps I have had too much experience of Finspreads, but when I get a price and a set period of time to accept that price I do somewhat expect the trade to be accepted if I press the button within the allotted time period. Not so - if the price moves on SETS as you position the mouse to press the jolly old button then the trade is usually rejected and you have to start afresh. Is that not a requote - who am I to judge !

So CMC'ers - the grass might look greener, but it's overall more expensive and it still might leave the odd nasty taste from time to time.

CMC - I was certainly deterred from opening an account by the tirade of complaints spanning at least three bulletin boards. It might well be in your interest to debug your software and/or clean up your act !

Although I shall probably maintain my Finspreads and GNI accounts (horses for courses), the majority of my trading is now done through ETrade - it's fast and it does exactly what it says on the tin (well, more or less) !

The issue I identify with and one which I find the most abhorrent is that of increasing and excessive delays when executing orders.

In the past, I have waited and waited to get my order filled, knowing that the size entered is on the bid or offer, yet not been filled at the price I requested. These delays in execution serve only to put one at a disadvantage - nothing more.

What happens is that they delay it long enough (even for highly liquid SETS stocks) so that the stock price moves. Should the stock price move against you, you will be filled at the requested price. If the stock price moves in your favour, you will be re quoted. Is this fair?

What I tend to do is (given the chance) cancel the order or just let the re quote timeout. In this scenario, no one wins. So how can they possibly expect to stay in business when taking this attitude? If all users of the MM5 platform decide to react to re quotes in the same manner then the answer to that question is surly: Not very long. Bear this in mind the next time you are offered a re quote.

The reason CMC offer the spreads that they do is so they don't compete with other companies on price. It would be a pointless exercise for them to increase the spread when direct access offers a better option. So you see, they must offer the price that they do in order to attract custom, for surely there would not be any point in using them to trade CFD's were they to widen the spread.

Moreover, I see no reason why execution should not be immediate. There are no *acceptable delays*.

Blurb from CMC's web site:
Real-time Dealing Prices
Our free award winning trading system continuously displays live share & Index (CFD) dealing prices. These prices can be dealt on at any time by the click of a mouse. CMC acts as a market maker, it spreads may be wider or narrower than those available in the market including those on SETS.

Their weasel words drivel on:
Trading CFD Shares with deal4free means that there will be no commission fees for clients to pay. Commissions are no longer needed to cover the cost of processing deals, so CMC can pass these savings directly back to clients. Internet trading has had a dramatic effect on broker overheads as deals can now be processed for a fraction of their original cost. Using the Internet to cut processing costs CMC can now pass this saving on to their clients whilst offering spreads normally associated with major banking institutions

Poppycock
Realtime trading software.
By using award winning dealing software deal4free.com provides investors with real time prices, news, analysis, alerts and a trading system that allows clients to trade on the price they see on the screen. With advanced software clients can see a price, trade and view their positions in seconds. The trading software is given free to all live deal4free.com trading customers.

Becoming banal
CMC Group Plc. is a market maker, not a broker, and will act as a principal, not as an agent.

Horsefeathers
What is the minimum and maximum trade size I can transact with CMC?
The minimum trade size is one whole Share and there is no maximum trade size. The maximum position allowed will be subject to margin requirements.

I don't see a *CMC is wonderful thread*. Do you?

cmc spreadbetters

You will find you have been taken off instant fill trades if you are on numerous occasions when trading hitting on low volume stocks for excample placing a 20 a point trade(2000 shares) getting filled when there might only be 100 shares there.

If you keep doing that what do you expect them to do keep writing out a cheque for you or stop your instant fills and monitor your trades from now on.

This is what happened to me and i put my hands up to it made a lot of cash but got found out. Now all my trades are at snail pace with constant requotes.

I reckon all you lot have been caught out to.

They should change there quotes based on ETRADES PLATFORM WHICH TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THE VOLUME ON BID/OFFER AND GIVES YOU A QUOTE BASED AGAINST YOUR STAKE AND VOLUME AT THE TIME OF TRADE.

I understand D4F are working on this and it could be in place before xmas so PAUL WEBB chief dealer told me about 5 weeks ago,this should stop all the promlems with scalping and instant fill on trades when volume isnt there.

good luck

paul o reilly (alias fundmanagers to many on certain b/boards)

do you work for d43

First thing this morning I went short ANL (not exactly a low volume stock) and put in a limit buy. Checked the current position a while later only to find the stock had dropped well below the limit price, but the limit not carried out. Watched for a while and watched the price creap back up towards the limit price, and still nothing. So I cancelled the limit & bought at market.

What is the point of Limit orders if they don't carry them out!

must admit i have had that happen to me,ive been with them for abt 3 years cfds 1st and now s/b, and like a lot of others yes i have had probs,i was taken off the auto matching system long ago,so now everything i do goes through a dealer but it has changed the way i trade i used to do prob 70/80 trades aday scalping away now i trade prob 20 trades 10 round trips but in a lot bigger amounts.ive learnt to work with them rather than aginst them.but i would say the following ,i dont think there is such a thing as a perfect company belive me it was d4free after all that forced the likes of city/ig into the real world by tighting the spreads that that havd been happily ripping us off for years,i now trade tax fee commision free,
i sit in an office with guys who trade direct into the liffe market they can run up fees of 300/400 quid a day and still be flat,they cant belive i pay no fees,so thats the other side of the coin.
also ive found there no point getting irate with these people rember they are pure order fillers theres ntg in it for them,they just fill our orders ive had more joy being nice than having ago ,ive had orders filled at better rates by just enquiring why a fill took so long,i have sat on the other side of the fence for 14 years trading in the city and belive me irate customers always got the worse fills.
anyway you have probably lost the will to live reading this i suppose all i amtrying to say is i really dont think the grass is greener anywere else

I have copied this over from the Traders Room thread about CMC. If anyone else wants to come can they email me: mike@moneyam.com. Your chance to find out how spread betting companies especially CMC work.


Mike

Date is Saturday 18th October at 12noon to be held at CMC offices at 66 Prescot Street, London E1 8HG.

Brian Griffin (Chief Dealer) and Jayne Banks (Communications Officer) will both be present to answer your questions.

Those attending:

Axdpc
Bullshare
KeithB
MLeung.
Mo-money
Tofur


So with thanks to all those who have posted on here, I have created a list of questions as a guide to the points raised, I have included some users comments to get the message across. If your comment is not directly quoted I hope that the ones I have used fairly reflect your concerns.

1) MarketMaker Software

Becoming increasingly unreliable at peak times - coincidence or what?
Frequently hangs and locks up

2) Charting Package
Inaccurate signals, candlesticks, bars, and crossovers.

3) Telephone calls

Attitude on the phone by some of your dealers/staff to perfectly reasonable
requests/questions

Been with CMC 2 days... New customer....however not happy already, sorry CMC it's just not up to scratch today...Phone lines were not being answered after 5 mins hanging on...later they were just engaged, i.e no queue either...

Promise to answer the phone within 10 rings.

4) Green Tickets

"A confirmed order to me is when you get a green ticket-why then when you have cancelled an order several times & never got a green ticket- do some go through & some not? Selective after the event or what?

5) Freeze ups

Freeze ups on order tickets just as major moves are upon us. Do you put curbs in place if the markets start moving

6)Slow quotes

my main gripe with cmc is slow fills on stocks i play alot and silly requotes and they can be very cunning with the requotes

spw price was 345.5 and the requote was 355.75 i took it thinking it was .25p higher only to discover it was 10.25p higher i checked the trades tape and at no time had a fill even close to 355.75 been carried out that,please stop giving me silly requots 10-15p away from the current price

Honour the screen quote.

You can tell once your order is placed that they just wait to see how it's looking before confirming - some would call this stacking the odds!

In the last 20 trades I have done, 18 of them were held for as much as 60 seconds ( even if there is plenty of stock on level 2 to fill), then re-quoted with the price moving the wrong way. Yet they are never slow when its moving in their favour they fill in a shot."

I'm suffering like everyone else and my profits this week are only about 75% of what they would have been without these antics - can I claim a record for 10 minutes for a requote.

quotes are taking up to 3 minutes and their price is no longer always dependent on the order book even when volume present.

"I don't think the size of bet is necessarily always the issue - my typical bet is 5 a point, and I still had a yellow box once for several minutes! I am particularly intrigued by the fact that, apparently, the 'Cancel order' button can be shown when, according to a dealer, the trade has already gone through!!"

They seem to be up to a new trick today - been trading GSK and 3 times in 2 minuites I hit the button to sell at the quoted price of 187 and each time the fill was held and then requote at 1185 when the level 2 price had never changed. Eventually got out at 1186 then the Bid on L2 was still 1187. On a fast stock this is an impossible platform to trade.

"I believe CMC need to ensure that the dealing guide is NOT silent on such important issues as 20 second quote delays or whether a stop is triggered on the bid or offer - their platform does not accept "stop-bid" or "stop-offer" instructions. That, for instance, means they have absolute discretion in both these areas which, sadly, is open to abuse. That cannot be right.

7)Does a clients' profitability affect the quotes

"Do CMC requote and change the rules if a user is constantly making money/profits"

8) Bet size and requotes

Do CMC hold back making a quote if a user is putting on a sizable bet and if so what are the sizes.

Some examples

" I carried out a little experiment and the result was expected. Try betting small amounts (1-10pp) and the orders goes through. Now try larger size bets (10-50pp) and sit back and watch the computer freeze up, requotes, the usual tricks. Now try (100-200), lol, you may as well not bother."

"I have the same problems as most here,had a another trader sat here with me last friday,had his account on one screen mine on the other, both went for a mks short,he got almost instant fill and mine took a lot longer,on this occassion it was ok as mks isnt a fast mover and i still got the price,but if it had been on something like gsk or rbs etc i would have almost certainly been requoted as the price would have moved as they took so long,"

"if wanting a large position I often fill it with a few small bets when I know they'll not fill the big one. Once had a dealer immediately come online and tell me I was taking advantage of the system. It has been obvious to me for some time that computers automatically fill small trade sizes and big ones get referred."


9) Why dont CMC display the size they quote in, on the screen in the first place.

"If CMC were an honest company then they would display the size that they are willing to trade beside each EPIC in their software.

10) Account statements and balances are often wrong
"
"My positions are showing the same as previous days, my overnight positions have disappeared, winning ones of course!"

11) Conflicts of interest

Between CMC business , CMC clients and CMC Staff

a) How CMC generate their income and how CMC staff are paid.

If cmc are not charging commission how do you think they make their profits especially if they are not fully hedging your trades in the markets
the market?

b) What are the common interests between CMC and clients?

c)Do you hedge all positions if you don't then are you indirectly competing against the users themselves.

d)Are dealers allowed to trade their own accounts and give quotes to clients on the same stocks.

12) Spread movement

However, we have all had examples where d4f take an extra bit on the spread when there is volume in the market. I would like to see this practice ceased or at least clarified.

Evening spreads & quotes are a joke & make trading then impossible-do your staff just want the night off?

13) Disappearing filled orders.

This has only happened to me once and to be fair the price I dealt at I knew to be an absolute bargain and not actually available in the market due to the 5% enforced auction rule but I feel it wrong that the order is simply removed from the blotter. A quick chat message would be reasonable pointing out why the order was not going to be honoured.

14) Chat Window

a) Had a chat window open the other day saying a dealer wanted to talk to me...
to say "Boo" !! Is that a professional system?

I had that yesterday on my s/b account...it just said "boo".

b) Why bother to offer a toggle chat which you take too long to answer?

Took me about 4 hours to get an answer to a question via 'chat' the other day!

15) Service Agreement

How about drafting a detailed 'Service Practice Agreement' and present
this for discussion at the meeting and for inclusion in the 'Customer Agreements'? It can encompass solutions to all the problem you know but takes into account the increased risk outside market hours.


16) Incorrect Margin Calls

I have been margin called 7 times in the last 5 hrs, saying that I have equity of just gbp 500 odd. I have over 40% free margin, I have called three times and been told to ignore it, they are going out in error


17) After Hours Trading

More stocks please

My other gripe with CMC is the after hours spreads. I wish that these could be narrowed to make it possible to trade after hours like it was 15 months ago. Its very unfair that the spread widens at 8.00pm.


18) Stops

a) do you move the price quoted to take out stops

b) Is the stop activated on bid/offer or on nearest trade

I used to have a CMC account. I was trading the DOW, this was a couple of years back. The market had dropped for a number of days, very similar to recent events. Pre market opening was up. At open it moved up and I joined in on a long position with a long stop. The market turned and tanked down, passing my stop. I noticed that my trade was still open and tried to contact CMC. No answer. The trade was eventually done well below my stop. The market reversed and then went back up, continuing on for a 2 week rally of 600 pts.

I argued with CMC and they stated they were not obliged to operate the stops, best endeavours and all that. The trading platform refused to respond so I was unable to manually close, and they did not answer the phone.

c) Only allow a one point slippage on a stop.

19) How are the Indices calculated on CMC

CMC certainly skew the price on the FTSE, don't they. The index just surged to 4155 whilst the spread stuck at 4147/50.

20) Account Opening

I finally decided to fund (first thing this morning ) the account I set up a month ago and guess what, they can't let me have a pin number so I can actually use the account for a day. (Although after 2 phone calls, they say they will try and do it in a few hours, accept I won't be here!) Wish I'd know it'd take so long..... Looks like I'll finally get the info, and won't get to use it as I won't have access to the internet for the next few days when they finally send it to me!

Finally

Not forgetting there were also a number of people who were happy with CMC; this sums up some of their feelings.

"having read the above posts i may be the odd man out but i have used cmc for about a year and in that time i have never had a problem that has not got sorted, re dealers attitude, same again i may be the odd man out, but i have found the dealers fair and helpful, my attitude is treat them with the respect you expect to be treated by, in fact they are better than some others i have used, and no i dont have any connection with cmc, as most of you know me, this is my opinion of cmc"

have to agree with some of above points and disagree with others as my prevoius posting i am fairly happy i trade what i would call fairly large pos in lloyds and barc100/200 quid pip and on the whole am fairly happy with them but must admit fills are certainly taking longer than they used 2,but would love to know how sat goes
rgds good luck

Does anyone know how the meeting on Saturday 18th October went with CMC?

Here we are, I copied this over from the 'Traders room' for all to see, I hope Mike doesn't mind.

Bullshare - 21 Oct'03 - 14:38 - 289 of 300


Meeting Saturday 18th October

First of all thanks to all those who took time to come along on Saturday to CMC offices.

I am sure whatever has been detailed below, and mentioned on here by the others will still leave unanswered questions from users, if this is the case email helpdesk@deal4free.com. That is the place to get your questions answered direct!If you fail, to get a satisfactory answer always refer to their compliance dept.

For those who did not attend I hope you get a flavour of the discussions.

Out of interest, I myself have had an account with CMC, as I also have accounts with other Spread betters and have had cause to complain and like wise cause to congratulate. This goes for all the spread betting companies I have used!!!

This is a synopsis of over 2 hours of discussion.


1) Market Maker Software.

Yes, it has been unreliable . Version 5 fixed some issues and this has been addressed by new database changes and installations over the last couple of weeks. The spread betting and CFD platforms operate separately and have different databases/servers as well as back office systems. The system is being worked on over the next 4 weeks to resolve any further conflicts.

Although CMC admit failings in the system, users should also be aware that sometimes there own network/ISP connection can cause issues.

Any problems incurred are not down to capacity issues at CMC it is mainly database.

They admitted that unreliability was unacceptable and were working on it. They have a team of over 40 techies who look after their systems and develop new products

2) Charting package.

They say it is not good and is only a simple package. They will be adding occasional new features to it, but it is not part of their core business. Those wanting a more advanced system should really be looking to use a third party supplier.

Charts are based on CMCs prices and not the market prices, hence there will be conflicts on chart between high/lows etc compared with the underlying market..


3) Telephone calls.

There was quite a long discussion about this and one of the attendees pointed out particular problems he had with CMC and two individual dealers.

CMC said there was absolutely no excuse for rudeness by dealers on the phone. All dealers should give their name at the start of a conversation. If a user has a reason to complain phone Brian Griffin, Head Dealer, who would take the matter very seriously and deal with the matter. All calls are recorded so CMC can playback the conversation.

If a user does keep having issues with telephone calls maybe they should also tape conversations.


4) Green Tickets

No ticket should be held for more than 1 minute ( this point was debated at length and in users experience this was not the case, often much more than 1 minute).

If someone starts playing the system, the system might refer from an autoquote and pass it over to a dealer to handle (see below). An example would be someone wanting 7000 shares, when there is no volume available in the level 2 order book. A user tries to buy 7000 by pressing 1000 seven times!!!

Freezing tickets might also be a connection issue.

5) Freeze Ups

CMC does not put any trading curbs in place. In a fast moving market shear volume of trading requests in the underlying market coupled with slowness of Market Makers themselves to make prices or answer the phone. If SETS itself is moving very fast this will cause slowness in autoquotes and will also force constant requotes.


6) Slow Quotes:

This is obviously one of the main issues raised by users.

I have therefore broken down how CMC make prices to try and explain why some quotes are slow or why constant requotes occur.

Firstly CMC computers provide an electronic autoquote to a user on both Spreadbet and CFDs . Where the order or request exceeds certain levels then the system will automatically alert a Dealer who will then take over and create a manual quote.

So what are the levels where a requote will occur or when it is passed to a dealer.


a) SEAQ stocks - CMC have no real interests in trading SEAQ stocks. Brians opinion on SEAQ stocks is best left out of print!!

Because of liquidity issues and the way SEAQ stocks operate, via market makers, SEAQ stocks will be handled manually more often than SETS stocks.
If a request to spreadbet or CFD trade is made, the dealers will look at the size available by the best market makers quotes and will also take into account the most recent movement of other Market Makers. On SEAQ stocks, because of the liquidity issues CMC might hedge the position straight away.

b) SETS Stocks. CMC said it was vital for users who were active to have a level 2 pricing system. Why? well CMC base their prices on the level 2 system!!!

CMC will base their prices (both spread bets and CFDs) on the yellow strip where there is enough volume available. e.g if you are after 1000 shares(or equivalent spread bet) and there are 2000 available on the yellow strip(top quote) then the quote should stay valid. If you are after 5000 shares (or the equivalent spreadbet) then the system might refer the quote onto a dealer as it is larger than that available . The dealer will then look at the order book and try and find a position in the order book where your quantity would get filled. On large orders or spreadbet this could be someway down then book. All spread bets are based on the underlying CFD platform , so again anyone wanting a bet will have to follow the level 2 pricing.

This would answer the many issues raised about slow quotes or requotes. If a stock is moving fast and the yellow strip price and or quantity is constantly changing then CMC will keep requoting.



7) Does a clients profitably affect the quotes.

A categorical denial. It is in their interest for users to make money so they will trade more!

8) Bet size and requotes

Hopefully this was answered above in more detail

But, yes bet size will affect the quote, if the bet exceeds levels of stock available at the price on level 2 then a different price will be quoted. So someone with a 5 spreadbet might be at a different price to someone at 50 if there is a thin book, as perhaps would someone wanting 1000 shares against 10,000.

Requotes occur generally where the market is moving fast so CMC have to move their prices in line with the market or where size is an issue.

They also operate a queuing system so on an actively traded stock your request might have to wait for a previous request by a client to be passed through. So although you might see enough stock available on L2, there might be someone ahead of you trying to get a quote. This is why it might seem there is enough stock at L2 and you get requoted as they, as a company, have demand for more than the order book.

9) Why dont CMC display the size they quote in.

This is would be a logical approach, and in theory would resolve many issues on requotes and would create transparency. etc. CMC although understanding the request, felt that this was not currently possible because:

1) they base their prices on L2 order book which constantly changes.
2) They are not allowed to quote level 2 order book levels without charging exchange fees.

I think those attending felt that the excuse for not quoting was not totally valid !

10) Account statements

Yes, this has been an issue and hopefully addressed with the new back office they installed 2 weeks ago and with their new databases.

11) Conflicts of interest.

a)_CMC make their profits by

The spread differential
CMCs approach to hedging (see below).
40% of CMCs business is in the profitable Forex market, an area of business the company was originally founded on.
They pay staff salaries and no bonuses/commissions.

b) Common interest between CMC and Clients.

Just to recap that they want users to make a profit(as above)

c) Do you hedge all positions

No.

Natural hedging might occur internally. As an example: CMC might set a limit of 1000 worth of exposure on a spreadbet. So they might have 15,000 worth of long positions in XYZ and 14,500 of shorts giving a natural hedge with their clients, except for 500 which they will take on board at their own risk. Should the difference exceed say the 1000 they will go and hedge this difference in the markets. This hedge might be through the future or by buying/selling the underlying stock. The hedging risk level will be decided internally, in other words they will take view of where the market or the stock itself will go and hedge accordingly.

d) Can dealers trade. No.

12) Spread Movement:

The underlying spread on SETS stocks is based on the level 2 order book. This spread may move depending on order book itself.

On SEAQ stocks the spread will be based on liquity of stcck, stock available at yellow strip etc. CMC may weight one side of a quote more heavily and this will be partially caused by their own view of where the stock is going. On US stocks the reason for the spreads changes is liquidity issues.

13) Disappearing filled orders

A dealer should always ring/chat before canceling a trade. If this does not happen please complain to the Head Dealer and then Compliance if the issue is not resolved

14) Chat window.

There is no excuse for slowness in CMC answering Chat.

The BOO issue was due to the techies testing the chat system and instead of the Boo appearing on the CMC internal system as a test message it appeared on the external system.

15) Service Agreement

Good suggestion and one they will take on board and discuss further

16) Incorrect margin calls

Hopefully rectified now new back office and database systems put in place in the last 2 weeks

17) After Hours Trading

The number of stocks available is linked to the stocks with US ADRs.

After hours stock prices and spreads are based on these ADRs which inherently have wide spreads and can move fast.


18) Stops

a) Do you move the price to take out stops.

No

b) Is the stop activated on bid/offer or nearest trade.

It is based on the nearest trade that occurs not on prices asked.

Stops will sometimes appear to be slow to be filled as all stops are manually operated by a dealer and are not handled automatically. The Dealer will always wait for a price to trade rather than for the market to quote a price

Stops are not guaranteed unless you take out the guaranteed stop with them.

On gap downs or ups, again they have to go by the nearest traded price which could be someway away from where you have set it.

Removal of a stop is also a manual process by a Dealer hence sometimes slow to go from blue to white.

c) One point slippage

CMC said that they normally allow/suggest a stop 4% away from the current price

19) Indices

These are calculated purely on the Future (not the cash) less fair value. Fair value is constantly calculated and changes. Example given to us, the FTSE Future fair value was 11points.

FTSE 100 cash was at 4368, FTSE Future was trading at 4374 , fair value was 11 points so CMC mid price for their FTSE would have been 4363.

20) Account opening

Yes, they must improve the speed and easy of depositing/withdrawing .

E&OE

So basically CMC avoided most questions (not surprised at all as they are regulated by the FSA). I could never see them admitting that they knock out stops for their own personal gain (a rope and tree comes to mind) although I have to say that recently my fills have been a tad faster so who knows, all the effort that went into the meeting may have made a difference. The future will tell if CMC will listen to its customers, one thing is for certain is that we should all still keep recording on this thread all the problems that CMC give out to us on a regular basis, as we have the power to try and change things, as WE are their bread and butter.

Interesting article on CMC founder:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-867825,00.html