Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Hils 49 % ???

Ffs , that's a phone poll that includes people like Fred who will say anything to wind people up then not vote and a targeted bunch of kids who will say anything to get u off the phone so they can go back to sleep.

Keep praying :-)

Then the Breakers don't have any reason to be running scared of a second referendum.

if there is another referendum, regardless of the way it goes, should there then be yet another in say 5 years time if things are not panning out as one side or the other promised? ..... just to make sure that people feel they made the right choice of course

fwiw - not much!
that said it rather counters what CNG was posting

of course, any (very) close result will split and polarise the country even more
a good reason to live by the first?


The Independent’s Sunday edition carries an exclusive poll by BMG Research suggesting December saw the Remain vote edging into a majority among the public after months of steadily rising support. Almost half of those polled think May’s deal is a bad one. Perhaps this was all part of the plan?

Cyners,

There's not really any point in having another referendum in, say, 5 years time as that would be a referendum on whether to rejoin the EU rather than to remain. Rejoining would be on the EU's broad terms which would include adopting the euro, and the loss of the UK's rebate. There's no way the public would wear that.

If there's to be a second referendum, it really does need to be before the Withdrawal Agreement is ratified, and, even at this late stage in the day, the preparation needed would require an extension of Article 50.

The easiest solution really is for Parliament to just ignore the will of people and revoke Article 50. That would kill off a few gammon. :o)

The polls have suggested for some time that remain has a lead over leave. The Independent poll is significant insofar as it's the first poll to suggest that more than 50% of the public want to stay. Apparently, even Wales are having second thoughts now...

Consider who was the smart arse who decided to have a referendum in order to save his own neck and stop the torrid party from splitting.

A bit like a Manuel fluttering in the breeze. "All things to all men".

Dilbert,

As Fred alluded, if you're confident that leave would win a second referendum, you've nothing to worry about....

:o)

it was slightly tongue in cheek, but a 2nd referendum does rather smack of having one because a goodly number of people did not like the result of the first

however, if there is another vote, then that too is very likely to be close, with yet again a goodly number of people not liking the result ..... hence in honesty why i commented that perhaps there should be a 3rd one, if not in 5 years time (too soon) then in 10, and then on and on and on

Perhaps, after a 5 year period, there will be a meaningful General Elections!

Also, that manifestoes could be adhered to more closely or even binding. (With a Period of Limitations contracts. Government members pay would be made only after perusal of fulfillment of the contracts, or not.) 8-)

The problem there would be that those who draw them up would have to have the gift of foresight.

-=-=-==

What I would like to see revealed is the personal financial advantages of "Breakit" for those advocating the policy.

Possibly, we can see some of the possible advantages to the Readwoods, Moggies, Savages of the Neo-cons..

I want an uninformed 3 rd rerendum and a general election. Long YouGov

Martini,

You have already had one uninformed referendum and unlikely to be able to understand an "informed" one, even if granted.

From what has been legally revealed to be 'hidden away' in the Withdrawal Agreement, referendum results don't seem to count for much anyhow.

Agreed?

Taken from: https://briefingsforbrexit.com/a-letter-to-remainers-by-dr-graham-gudgin/

IMHO, the following outline situation DOES SEEM TO BE THE CASE most of the time:

The date of the original posting is 7/12/2018 (ie. 2 days ago)

Graham Gudgin describes his experience of a remainer-dominated Brexit rally in affluent South Cambridgeshire. The people he talked to seemed to know little about the EU but were determined to air their credentials as ‘good’ people.

Dear Remainers,

I met hundreds of you at an open meeting on Brexit held recently by South Cambridgeshire’s formidable pro-remain MP Heidi Allen. You are passionate about your cause and applaud wildly at any point made in support of your beliefs. Your fervent wish is for a second referendum which you always call a ‘people’s vote’ without any sense of embarrassment at the propagandist use of evasive language typical of demagogues. You have little interest in Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement since this involves leaving the EU, albeit in a half-hearted way. You thus support Heidi’s intention to vote against the WA in parliament.

South Cambridgeshire is one of the UK’s most affluent areas, full of people working in high-tech companies and some of the world’s most prestigious research centres. The audience in the meeting thus included many mature and intelligent professional people. It was striking that you appeared to have used your intelligence and skills largely to collect evidence is support of your pro-remain views and were apparently content to quote figures from economic studies of which most of you can have little understanding.

This ‘confirmation bias’ is well known and modern research suggests that it is endemic among the well-educated in forming their views on a wide range of issues not just Brexit. Heidi Allen warned the audience that their views were not at all representative of areas further north, and one or two of you expressed sympathy for the people of these benighted regions who have been so wickedly misinformed as to vote against their own self-interest.

You place much weight on the fact that many elderly leavers have died since 2016 while several million young remainers have come of age. In your view, a second referendum would be easily won with this new electorate. Similar arguments were made in the 1960s that since young people voted Labour while old Tories were steadily dying, this meant the future was Labour. It did not work out that way partly because people forget that existing voters are steadily aging and becoming more conservative.

Talking to some of you after the meeting I was struck by how little you know about the EU. Few of you can name a single EU Commissioner or know who your MEP is. Nor are you aware that EU legislation is initiated by the unelected Commission and not by the EU parliament. Such details do not concern you because you see your ideals as much loftier than mere administration. What concerns you is being good, open and cosmopolitan, and feeling good about yourself and your country.

By far the biggest cheer of the evening went in support of a lady who said she was an EU citizen and was very worried about her future living in the UK. No mention was made of the fact that the existing rights of all EU citizens are totally protected with no suggestion that this would ever change, deal or no deal. You expressed your sympathy and felt better. The important point was the lady’s feeling of distress irrespective of whether her feelings have much basis in fact. More cheers greeted another highly articulate man who said his firm was trying to recruit a skilled German and offering a huge salary. The German was willing to come to the UK but his wife refused to bring her children to a society which had turned its back on the outside world! She might well have been describing North Korea, but the distinction mattered little to you. You felt her pain.

It was impossible to get in a question among the multitude who wished to express their opposition to any form of Brexit, but I did get a brief chat with Heidi at the end. Like all remainers she had said that ‘no deal’ would be catastrophic, and she had added that she had assessed the evidence and had talked to firms in her constituency who were profoundly worried about the prospect of no deal. Those who prophesy disaster from ‘no deal’ are almost never asked to describe the evidence for this apoplectic view, and I wondered what her evidence was. After an impressive, indeed bravura, performance on her part throughout the evening I was somewhat shocked when she said that 8 million jobs would be lost immediately if no deal occurred. Since this completely bonkers view is shared by no remainer economists and represents the loss of almost a third of all UK jobs, I repeated the figure to make sure I had heard her correctly. She said yes 8 million and the analysis was on her website (I have been unable to find anything relevant on her site and have emailed her for guidance – no reply yet).

What I usually do when people make outlandish over-confident predictions is to offer them a large bet. These are always refused since confidence always melts away when cash is involved and so it was with Heidi. I offered her a £10,000 bet that nothing remotely like that level of job loss would occur if there was no deal next March. She said what people always say in this situation, i.e. that she does not make bets, and smiled winningly. I was too polite to point out that her earlier claim that the Good Friday Agreement mandated no hard border in Ireland was also inaccurate. As a former special advisor to the First Minister in Northern Ireland I knew that the GFA included no mention of borders but I doubted she would have much interest in this level of precision.

The evening was what I imagined similar meetings must have been like on appeasement in the 1930s, on nuclear disbarment in the 1950s, or in opposition to cruise missiles or the Falklands invasion in the 1980s. The well-educated are so often on the wrong side of history that it gives me comfort that being surrounded by hundreds of passionate remainers in a school hall in Cambridgeshire tells me nothing about how history will pan out.

My leaver friends are compassionate and outward-looking people, fond of Europe and its wonderful cultures, but critical of the ambitions of a weakly democratic and economically under-performing EU. Yet, none of this would have had any impact on you remainers. You are totally assured of your correctness and you all went home happy, your progressive views on Brexit having been fully vindicated.

Yours in open-mouthed disbelief,

Graham Gudgin

a very good read - i actually managed the whole of it!

in fact, it just confirms my opinion that none of us has any clue what will happen once WA is defeated heavily in westminster on tuesday, let alone what will happen in the coming 18+ months, and then a further 5/10 years down the line

with great misgivings i voted to leave in the referendum, and i am almost sure i shall do so again if a 2nd referendum is foisted upon us

Maybe of help!

"The European Commission (EC) is an institution of the European Union, responsible for proposing legislation, implementing decisions, upholding the EU treaties and managing the day-to-day business of the EU.[2] Commissioners swear an oath at the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg City, pledging to respect the treaties and to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate.[3] Unlike in the Council of the European Union, where members are directly and indirectly elected, and the European Parliament, where members are directly elected, the Commissioners are appointed by the European Council and confirmed by the European Parliament.

The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners").[4] There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.[3]

And so on.

Have a look at members of the "unelected" cabinet office "helping" to make laws and administrate the UK.

-=-=-=-=-=-=


I suppose they don't come round knocking on your doors.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

roll on the 3rd uniformed referendum.

Martini,

What will you be wearing this time?

"Jankers!"

Manuel,

Her is your heroine!

I find it unacceptable this talk of a second referendum !.....this business of the MP's deciding the fate of what has become a complete Brexit mess by remainers is a total disgrace....and now oh !...we shall have a second referendum.....is the supposed answer.....need to send the gilets jaunes down to Westminster !....

RF.

Have a look at :

"Brexit
As Churchill saw, Britain’s glory is not found in isolation"



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/09/david-lammy-brexit-is-a-betrayal

It is very concise.

-=-===

Interesting article

Also, well written and informed, which may be of interest to is "It' time for May to put her deal to the people"

http://guardian.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx#