This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

And now we have the Googleplot!

It's not that nobody's watching this rubbish, it's because Google are fiddling the numbers.

A plot to conceal a plot. Exquisite.

On the policeman refusing a duty ...

Try substitution tests of different combinations of races, religion, etc ...

Dont mind who Barwoni is or from where he/she came. Always happy to give everyone's opinions some thoughts, time and energy permitting. As long as it is not abusive. There are usually bits of interesting nuggets of ideas. We learn nothing if there are no disagreements.

I have a friend who is a (now retired) officer in the Metropolitan Police.

White, male, middle-aged, some would describe him as an "old-fashioned copper". Fair-minded, decent sort.

He applied to join the Association of Black Police Officers. He was hauled up, asked what he was playing at. He said "well, they can join our Association, so why can't I join theirs? If they won't let me join, that would be discrimination against me because I'm white, wouldn't it?"

No coherent answer was forthcoming from any party.

The matter was never resolved, and my friend retired from the Force.

We'll have to disagree on this one, Tweenie.
Imagine the outcry had it been a White officer refusing to guard an African embassy in Protest at Nigeria or Zimbabwe. Or perhaps a white officer refusing his duties at an Islamic countrys embassy in protest at Islam. Or even a republican officer refusing to aid the royal protection.
The list is endless and I doubt a single one of them would receive a hint of sympathy from any of the media or public at large.

Barwoni,

IMO, very few of those 4,000 terrorists killed (I heard very different figures from other sources) are of clear and lethal threat to the UK public. I suspect most of them probably just want us out of their land.

If time and history took a different twist and UK are occupied by Iraq, then I could easily see several million Brits "terrorists" taking up arms. Would it be any different if Germany won the war?

Some people may smile at my concerns, however unlikely but not impossible. What if
there are unrests, disasters or external threats close to home, far too great for the police to handle, and the troops cannot return to the UK on time???

axdpc:

But the British populace couldn't take up arms against an invader these days, as they have disarmed by their Government, unlike, say the U.S., Switzerland or most E.U. countries.

So there would be no effective armed resistance here.

MM, a very valid point. Unlike the case you mentioned, some most damaging and contemptible forms of discriminations and favourtisms are very covert and insidious indeed.

MM, perhaps you are right but IMO, it is because most of us has no idea on how to use arms. Perhaps it is also because we think the any new foreign rulers cannot be any worse than the bunch we've got now, and the ones before, and the ones before that etc ... A bit sad if true.

p.s. with the temperature of disagreements we have within at the moment, it is probably safer for most of us not to have an armed the populous !

Barwoni. Thankyou for mentioning about Kriss Donald's tragic murder. It was disgusting and hopefully all muslims will be appalled. I hope that the perpetrators are brought to justice and serve life in jail. Disgusting and horrifying.

October 05, 2006
Pakistan: Mad Mullah's Muslim Jailhouse
News from Dawn and AKI tells the story of a bizarre Muslim cleric's private jail and torture center.

The cleric, Maulana Ilyas Qadri, ran a jail in a village near Haripur, 40 miles north of Islamabad. Police raided the jail, located in the village of Badhana, following a complaint by two people, and found 113 people incarcerated in the cleric's private "jailhouse".

Most of the individuals were kept in chains, and were severely malnourished. The cleric was arrested, as were his six guards, Ghulam Kibriya, Shaukat Rehman, Fakhar Zaman, Farman Khan, Javed and Mazar Ali. Seven of those who were in the jail were British nationals of Pakistani origin. Many of the prisoners were young men and boys.

The raid took place late on Monday night (October 2). The prisoners had been mistreated by the cleric and his guards. The prisoners claimed: "They would beat us with clubs whenever someone tried to escape or object to the treatment meted out to them." The guards also sexually abused them.

The prisoners were taken to Haripur district courts, where eight boys, aged 12 to 18 years, made statements to Civil Judge Hina Khan.

No reason has been given to explain why the individuals were kept prisoner. The cleric and his guards have been tried under aspects of the penal code relating to kidnap and beatings of minors, but also under the "Suppression of Terrorism Act".

Given the alleged prison places shortages In this country and with Blair and the rest of the tory party quite happy for large employers to export UK jobs (rather then train some of our own people) abroad. I wonder If this fellow In Pakistan might be getting a call )-:

Sorry couldn't resist that now that this topic has gone almost completely off topic .

Hearts and minds.

BBC NEWS Saturday, 7 October 2006, 01:49 GMT 02:49 UK

US medic jailed over Iraq murder

PO Bacos avoided murder charges with an offer to testify
A US Navy medic has been sentenced to 10 years in prison for his part in the killing of an Iraqi civilian in April.
But Petty Officer Melson J Bacos is expected to spend just one year in jail after agreeing to give evidence against seven marines charged with the murder.

Earlier Bacos told his US court-martial that the marines seized the man in the town of Hamdaniya, threw him into a hole and shot him in the head 10 times.

The case is one of several in which US troops are accused of killing Iraqis.

'I knew it was wrong'

Bacos admitted kidnapping, conspiracy to kidnap and conspiracy to file a false statement as part of the plea bargain at the court-martial in Camp Pendleton, southern California.

Military judge Col Steven Folsom sentenced Bacos to 10 years in prison, but reduced the period he will actually serve to one year because of the plea agreement.




Other US investigations

Bacos said he was on patrol with the marine squad who were looking for an insurgent - Saleh Gowad - who had been captured three times but released.

Bacos said the marines were angry the insurgent had been freed and, frustrated at not finding him, instead seized neighbour Hashim Awad from his home.

The medic said Mr Awad, 52, was put in a hole.

He testified: "I knew that we were doing something wrong. I tried saying something, sir."

But he said a marine told him to "quit being a pussy".

Bacos said squad leader Sgt Lawrence Hutchins III then fired three shots into Mr Awad's head followed by at least seven more rounds to the head from Cpl Trent Thomas.

'Scene staged'

Bacos said Sgt Hutchins called command for permission to fire on a man he had seen digging a hole.

I wanted to be part of the team. I wanted to be loyal

US Petty Officer Melson J Bacos

Prosecutors say an AK-47 assault rifle, bullets and a shovel were placed next to Mr Awad's body to make it appear as if he were trying to plant a roadside bomb.

The medic said the incident in the western Iraqi town of Hamdaniya in April made him "sick to my stomach".

Speaking of why he had not chosen to walk away from the incident, Bacos said "I wanted to be part of the team. I wanted to be loyal".

"Now I feel as though my honour is gone and I have let down others who have looked up to me. I apologise to our country," Bacos was quoted by Reuters news agency as saying. "I also ask forgiveness from the Iraqi family we have done this to."

Seven marines are at various stages of the military justice process over the kidnap and murder.

Two marines - John Jodka and Marshall Magincalda - have both already pleaded not guilty to murder.

The US military has said the death penalty will not be sought against any of the marines.


and did you know:

You have heard before that "Al-Qaeda" roughly translates into "the base," but were you aware that "Ana raicha Al Qaeda" is arabic colloquial for "I'm going to the toilet"?

I thought it was funny.just the last bit that is.

Man guilty of six-year-old's 'honour' killing

Martin Wainwright
Friday October 6, 2006



Birmingham crown court had heard that Tuzzio was filmed buying petrol at a filling station before bursting into the house where his victim, Alisha Begum, lived with nine members of her family.
In the attack on March 10 this year he sprayed the petrol round the house and started a fire. The child was the only one unable to escape and died in hospital from 95% burns.

The court heard that her brother Abdul Hamid, 21, had aroused fury by dating Meherun Khanum, 15, who lived nearby. Meherun is the sister of Hussain Ahmed, who was cleared.

Another of her brothers, Mohammed Foaz Ahmed, and a close friend of her family, Jabed Ali, are wanted by police for questioning about the fire but are thought to have fled to Bangladesh.

MIL-LD IRAQ-UNREST
Scores of people killed or wounded in latest violence

BAGHDAD, Oct 5 (KUNA) -- Scores of people were killed or wounded in various violent incidents on the turbulent Iraqi arena over the past hours and authorities declared a wide-scale operation clamping down on suspected terrorists.

Police said three military conscripts were killed and four others were wounded in mortar attacks in the northern city of Mosul. And in the town of Talaafar west of this city, four people including policemen were wounded in a car bomb blast.

Two civilians were killed and 28 others were wounded in two separate attacks in the Iraqi capital.

A security source told KUNA that a booby-trapped car, parked on side of a road in the district of Al-Hurriah in Baghdad, killed two civilians, wounded eight and inflicted heavy damage to nearby cars, houses and stores.

In another incident, three construction workers were wounded in a bomb blast that occurred at a public square in the heart of Baghdad, usually packed with motorists and pedestrians.

The American Army, meanwhile, said in statement that US troops, with backing by Iraqi regulars, have recently searched 95,000 buildings, 80 mosques, 60 districts and arrested 125 suspected terrorists.

Separately, police said gunmen burst into a house in the town of Al-Samawa in the southern governorate of Al-Muthanna, killed three women and slit throat of a year-old baby girl. (pickup previous) mhg.

Many of the teachings of Islam are incompatible with progress. Neither are they compatible with human rights, civil rights or constitutional rights.

Here are a few examples of the teachings of Islam:

Men are superior to women. (Surah 2:228)
Women have half the rights of men:
In court witness. (Surah 2:282)
In inheritance. (Surah 4:11)
A man may beat his wife. (Surah 4:34)
A man may marry up to four wives at the same time (Surah 4:3)
Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam. (Surah 9:29)
A Muslim must not take a Jew or a Christian for a friend.(Surah 5:51)
A Muslim apostate must be killed.(Surah 9:12)
Stealing is punished by the amputation of the hands. (Surah 5:38)
Adultery is punished by public flogging. (Surah 24:2)
No separation between Church and State. (Surah 2:193)
No opposition party allowed. (Surah 4:59)

BA, Now you have read the Koran carefully will you now check for similar quotes from the Old Testament which many of the beliefs that Jewish law and Jewish customs are based on. Similar quotes are found in the New Testament which with the Old Testament form much of the bases for the diversities of Christian beliefs and customs and to a certain degree the laws of Western systems.

I think there are faults in all religions, but it is reasonable to respect in general the socialising and "civilising" effects the have had. Evolving over time like secular law does.


MM. I think you would find that when there is a threat to family members officers are excused from "front" line duties which may increase the likelihood of danger.

RTFLMAO........

Yes read the koran before lunch now on the Torah, bible for breakfast.........

TIME TO GET THE NEO-CONS

Jeb Bush gets rude welcome
Police disperse angry protesters in Downtown T-station
Saturday, October 07, 2006

By Ervin Dyer, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette



Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, in town for a fund-raiser for Sen. Rick Santorum, had a close encounter with a large group of anti-Republican protesters as he was making his way to the Duquesne Club, Downtown.

It was about 4:15 yesterday when Mr. Bush met up with the protesters near the corner of Liberty and Sixth avenues. The protesters were marching to join other pickets already gathered in front of the exclusive club, a little more than a block away at 325 Sixth Ave.

Protesters said Gov. Bush blew them a kiss, acknowledging the crowd of about 30 chanting pickets that was made up of United Steelworkers and members of Uprise Counter Recruitment, a tour traveling through 22 cities to support anti-war efforts.

The protesters came closer.

"Jeb, go home," they shouted.

Mr. Bush, accompanied by a security guard and a female aide, made a slow retreat toward the T-station at Wood Street.

"He was quickly getting out of the way and not wanting to engage us," said Jon Vandenburgh, one of the protesters, who also is a researcher for the United Steelworkers.

Once in the subway station, Mr. Bush scurried to the escalators and descended to the mezzanine level, Mr. Vandenburgh said.

By now, Mr. Bush was cornered. He was surrounded by signs that said "Pittsburgh is a Santorum Free Zone," "Honk if you're sick of Rick," and a crowd growing increasingly louder, according to Mr. Vandenburgh.

"We don't want you here," protesters chanted.

Port Authority spokesman Bob Grove said six or seven officers responded to the scene to control the crowds.

He said Mr. Bush had been walking in the area near the T-station and the incident happened spontaneously when about 50 pickets "tailed him and stayed with him and went into the Wood Street station."

About 75 protesters remained on the street, said Mr. Grove.

He said the crowd was asked repeatedly to disperse.

Mr. Grove said a Port Authority canine unit was called in to help with crowd control. Two officers used their tasers to stun two protesters who "were asked to leave, but did not go," Mr. Grove said.

The tasers he said were empty of the cartridges that supply a more powerful charge.

"It was a very tense situation. They were very close to the governor and shouting on top of him."

As a precaution, the governor was ushered into a T-station supply closet and stayed there until the crowd left.

No arrests were made and no citations were issued, Mr. Grove said. Mr. Bush was not injured.

The two men who were tasered were shaken and left the protest, said David Meieran, with the Thomas Merton Center and one of the protesters with Uprise Counter Recruitment.

Mr. Meieran said the Port Authority officers were fairly aggressive and pushed them aside.

Pittsburgh police said they monitored the protest in front of the Duquesne Club, which they called peaceful, but did not respond to the incident in the T-station.

The entire incident lasted about 5 minutes. After calm was restored, the smaller group of protesters inside the T-station made their way back to the Duquesne Club where they staked out the front of the building and an alley entrance.

Mr. Vandenburgh and Mr. Meieran said they later saw Mr. Bush escorted to the Duquesne Club, which he entered through a back door at about 5 p.m.

A spokeswoman for Mr. Bush said she was unaware of the incident last night and had no immediate comment.

Again I find myself in a parallel universe. I read about a march in London, by illegal immigrants, complaining about not getting the rights they deserve.
I'm Sorry???? What rights would they be then?
What about the quotes??

"It is the migration control system that produces illegality,"

Yes, you'll find that is just the same as a theif who claims it is the Theft Act passed by parliament that makes him a criminal.

"They live in fear, afraid of looking for legal protection, and effectively banned from using public services."

Thats because they should not be here!! They are not allowed.

"We need to look at what makes people so-called "illegals" and why regulations are biased against particular groups, particularly those from non-European countries."

Had it escaped the notice of Rhian Benyon from JWCI , we are a part of the European union and Europeans have a right to be here.
It just amazes me, that we are seen as such a soft touch that even illegal immigrants can organise a march through our capital to complain we don't give them benefits and let them use the NHS. If our leaders had anything approaching a spine, the marchers would be led by the police to the nearest detention centre, checked to see if they were illegal, and dispatched pronto if they were.
Harsh?? Perhaps. Racially motivated?? No. These people are simply breaking the laws of the country they are in and should be dealt with as any criminal would be. Nothing racist about it.