This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

The above hypothesis is the vision of the future in H G Wells' "The Time Machine" The two species of humans that evolve are the Eloi (gracile) and the Morlocks (robust) -- who live by cannibalising the Eloi.

H G wells wrote the book in 1895. Nothing new here, folks.

Ba, the thought of a subspecies like you living to 120 is horrendous!

Off topic to all atheists on this BB.

(study of Blair's human character and nature is getting less educational ...)

If you are an atheists, do you think you have free will ?

Quiet, I will be seven feet tall :-)

A quick mention of Peter Mandelson by David Blunkett in his diary makes me wonder perhaps PM is the REAL instigator behind some of Blair's policies and actions.

"
There are king makers.
There are king shapers.
And there are those who sell new clothes to the king.
"

It will be very interesting to know who is now trying to quietly befriend and get close to David Cameron and Menzies Campbell ...

AXDPC, I know I have a free will because I believe so. So I am told. 8-)








My kids are looking for it!

Fred, LOLLL.

Risking taking your thread further off-topic, but could what we perceive as free-will rmerely the outcome of deterministic outcome from natural laws of physics and chemistry ... ?

(Not a trick question. It is one of my current ponderings seeking other people's opinions)

Back on topic ...


12 Oct 2006

The head of the British Army said the presence of UK armed forces in Iraq "exacerbates the security problems". In an interview in the Daily Mail, Sir Richard Dannatt (RD), Chief of the General Staff, is quoted as saying the British should "get out some time soon".
...


13 Oct 2006

Army chief defends Iraq comments.

Blair gives backing to army chief.
"I've read his transcript of his interview on the radio this morning, and I agree with every word of it."


14-15 Oct 2006

Criticisms of RD from senior government ministers ...


16 Oct 2006

Des Brown statement supporting RD (presumable against criticisms over the weekend)


17 Oct 2006

Blairs says "No walking away from Iraq "



"I agree with every word of it." ... LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

(poor Blair)

Could Dr. Oliver Curry be a conspiracist wearing cloaks of scientific hypothesis and
H.G. Wells another conspiracist hiding under the covers of fiction? :-))

During the height of Israel-Lebanon conflict a few month ago, there were two marches in London. The first march was in support of Lebanon, countered soon after by a march for Israel. From what I've read, the marchers for Lebanon were not concerned about possible injury to British Jews in Israel, nor are the marchers for Israel cared much about the suffering of British Arabs in Lebanon. IMHO, Behind and beneath all the slogans and shoutings there are probably more interest in killing than saving.

! ? :-(

BTW, what I've read is certainly not complete and even if I have read all the reports written from first hand observations, I will still not be certain I have a full and truthful knowledge.

60 US troops killed already this month , looking like Vietnam

politicians should be sent - the b*st*rds

http://iraqwarnews.net/

barwoni, interesting site.


maddoctor, agreed.

The soldiers took the Queen's silver, so have the politicians and every PUBLIC servants. Many things are done in the name of God, country, the Queen, the public and the shareholders. But how many people are genuinely fulfilling the wishes of God and Queen, and acting wholely in the interests of the country, the Public and the shareholders ?

FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (CNN) -- Four U.S. soldiers accused of raping and killing a 14-year-old girl and slaying her sister and their parents will face courts-martial on murder charges, military officials say.

The commander of the 101st Airborne Division has referred murder charges against the soldiers for the alleged crimes that occurred in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, in March. Two of the soldiers could face the death penalty if convicted.

According to a written statement, Maj. Gen. Thomas Turner made the decision after reviewing a report of the investigation and receiving recommendations from the investigating officer, the appointing authority who directed the investigation and his staff judge advocate.

One of the soldiers, 23-year-old Army Spec. James P. Barker, told an Army criminal investigator that after the killings he poured kerosene on the girl's bullet-ridden body, according to testimony in August at a military hearing. The girl's father, mother and five-year-old sister were also killed, according to military officials.

Barker said in an interview that he held the girl down while she was raped by another soldier, Sgt. Paul Cortez, 23, according to Special Agent Benjamin Bierce of the Army's Criminal Investigation Division.

Barker said he then attempted to rape the girl himself, before she was shot to death by former Pfc. Steven D. Green, Bierce said. Green is no longer in the military and faces charges in civilian court.

But, Barker added, he was not sure if he penetrated the girl, because he was having trouble getting an erection.

Bierce also testified that Barker admitted pouring kerosene from a lamp onto the girl's body, although it was unclear from the testimony who set the girl on fire.

Bierce's testimony came during a preliminary hearing in Baghdad for Barker, Cortez, and two other soldiers, Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman, 21, and Pfc. Bryan L. Howard, 19, who are also charged in connection with the killings in Mahmoudiya.

The hearing, similar to civilian grand jury proceedings, was held to determine whether there was enough evidence to proceed to courts-martial.

Soldiers held girl down, investigators say
According to statements given at the hearing, the soldiers were drinking whiskey, playing cards and hitting golf balls when Green brought up the idea of going to a house near the checkpoint where they were stationed, to rape the girl.

Barker described Green as very persistent, Bierce testified. The statements said the five soldiers -- Green, Cortez, Barker, Spielman and Howard -- then changed into dark clothing and covered their faces, before going to the house.

According to Barker, Howard was the lookout and was given a radio to use if anyone approached, Bierce said. The four remaining soldiers then entered the home, at which point the statements from Barker and Cortez about what happened diverge, according to testimony.

Barker told investigators that Cortez pushed the 14-year-old girl to the floor and made "thrusting motions" as Barker held down her hands; then they switched positions, Bierce said.

Sometime during the assault, Barker said he heard gunshots come from the bedroom, where the girl's parents and sister had been taken, and an agitated Green emerged and said he had killed them, Bierce said.

According to Barker, Green then put down the AK-47 he had been carrying and raped the girl, while Cortez held her down, and then picked up the gun and shot her several times, Bierce said.

Green then went into the kitchen and, when he returned, said he had opened the propane tank and they needed to get out of the house because it was about to explode, Bierce said.

However, in his statement to U.S. Army investigators, Cortez denied raping the girl, although he admitted holding her down while Barker raped her, Special Agent Gary Griesmyer testified.

Under questioning, Griesmyer testified there was no evidence Spielman raped or murdered anyone in the house.

Special Agent Michael Hood also said Spielman passed a polygraph test in which he denied shooting or raping anyone. However, in his statement to investigators, Barker put Spielman at the scene and said Spielman grabbed the five-year-old girl outside the house and took her inside, Bierce said.

After the alleged attack, Barker also said the soldiers gave Spielman their clothes to burn and that he threw the AK-47 in a canal, Bierce said.

A sixth soldier, Sgt. Anthony W. Yribe, has been charged with failing to report the alleged rape and killings, but was not alleged to have been a participant.

A soldier's suspicions
Also testifying at the August hearing was a soldier in the same platoon as the accused men, Pfc. Justin Watt, who said he began trying to find out what happened at Mahmoudiya after Yribe confided to him that Green had told Yribe about the rape and killings.

"I wanted to see if I could confirm my suspicions that there were more people involved," Watt said. "I believed there were American forces involved."

Watt said when he asked Howard about what happened, Howard revealed the plan to rape the girl and that his role was to be the lookout. "(Howard) let me know that he ended up seeing a Humvee and calling them back frantically," Watt testified.

Howard also told him that when the other soldiers returned from the house, "Their clothes were covered in blood," Watt said.

After piecing together the details about what happened, Watt said he reported his suspicions to a combat stress team. "If you have the power to make something right, you should do it," Watt said. "Investigation is not my job. But if something went down, something terrible like that, then it's my obligation to come forward."

However, Watt also described the conditions at Mahmoudiya as a "suck-fest," testifying that the soldiers were living in the basement of a "dilapidated, abandoned water treatment facility," and had gone 30 days without a shower.

He also said the ongoing violence, including the deaths of two soldiers in their unit shortly before the slayings of the Iraqi family, had affected everyone. "I was going to get a memorial tattoo of all the guys (who were killed), but there's not enough room on my arm," Watt said.

Accused has "anti-social personality disorder"
Green, who was discharged from the Army and returned to the United States in May because of an "anti-social personality disorder," is facing rape and murder charges in a civilian federal court. He is being held in a Kentucky jail.

All six men charged are from the 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division, based in Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

There is some confusion over the alleged rape victim's age. Identity cards and death certificates of the victims, which were obtained by Reuters news agency, show the alleged rape victim was Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi, with the birth date August 19, 1991.

The mayor of Mahmoudiya confirmed her identity and birth date to CNN. The U.S. military had previously referred to the alleged rape victim as a "young Iraqi woman."

A Justice Department affidavit in the case against Green says investigators estimated her age at about 25, while the U.S. military said she was 20.

Marines face murder charges in separate case
In Camp Pendleton, California, on Wednesday a U.S. Marine general ordered three Marines to stand trial on murder charges in the April killing of an Iraqi man outside Baghdad.

Cpl. Trent Thomas, Lance Cpl. Tyler Jackson and Lance Cpl. Robert Pennington are among a group of seven Marines and a Navy medic who have been held at Camp Pendleton since June in connection with the killing of Hasham Ibrahim Awad, 52, in the town of Hamandiya, west of Baghdad.

They face possible life sentences if convicted of murder. Lt. Gen. James Mattis, the chief of Marine forces in the Middle East, ordered the courts-martial after reviewing each case, the Marines announced in a statement from the San Diego-area base.


Taking the moral high ground/on a crusade/doing gods work.
Ain't war great...brings the best out of people.

But, for the sake of balance, Saddam Hussain did this on a wholesale basis, along with his henchmen. None ever faced any sort of trial or retribution in Iraq.
An army is a microcosm of any community, and just as in all communities, there are criminal elements. They have been caught and are being tried. The entire operation should not be judged on the actions of some individuals. Please remember that this highlights the difference between the forces of Iraq and the forces of the alliance.
Alan

BBC NEWS Thursday, 19 October 2006, 07:46 GMT 08:46 UK



Bush accepts Iraq-Vietnam echoes

President Bush insisted US forces would not cut and run
President George W Bush has accepted that the surge in violence in Iraq may be equivalent to America's traumatic experience in the Vietnam War.
Mr Bush told ABC News that it could be right to compare Iraq's situation to the 1968 Tet offensive, widely seen as a key turning point in the conflict.

But he denied that the rising number of Iraqi and US military deaths meant the Iraq campaign was failing.

October is on course to be one of the bloodiest months for US forces in Iraq.

So far about 70 troops have died, and with an average of three Americans dying every day this is one of the highest casualty rates sustained by the US military since January 2005.

OH my GOD.
He's seen the light. LOL
Time for an exit stratergy....
We ain't leaving till the jobs done....
Well the countries screwed, We did'nt find any WMD's and AL-Q In IRAQ is welcome to it....we've got the oil.......so I guess thats job done..
Next Stop KOREA. eeeerm no, he's barking and He's got NUKES.
Then I guess IRAN......Oh , He's barking as well and he'll probably have nukes by the time we invade.
I guess it'll have to be Latin America... Now where exactly did that CHAVZ fellow come from?

Alan , point taken.
However . Like it or not we are an occupying army.
This is the stuff that fuels the fires and gets suicide bombers motivated.
Whatever happens now will be too little, too late. the damage has been done.
Can you honestly say you feel safer since the war in iraq?

No, but neither would I say I felt more at risk.............
Islamic terrorism was happening on a growing scale before Iraq, and would have continued anyway. The terror in Iraq would have happened whatever caused the demise of Saddam, be it his arrest or his death, which had to happen one day. the invasion has not caused this, it has merely brought it forward by a few years. The only difference has been to reduce the number of years Iraqis were living under the threat of state sponsored violence.
Alan

Yep and the facts speak for themselves, nearly all the baddies are in Iraq/Afgan.

Vaccum drawing all the poison islamics terrorists to a head!

Posting by one of our guys on the ground......

Bad News & Good News
Sorry its been so long since Ive written but things here have been a bit crazy. I was listening to CNN a few nights ago about how President Bush has made such a mess of Iraq and how the poor Islamic people are suffering tenfold since the start of the war. I can tell you that it is all a big huge pile of BS. True, there has been an escalation of sectarian violence in country but, its because of the sacks of *&^% that are trying to gain control of the region. And as far as the religion based actions of the people here, lets take a first hand look at that shall we?

For the most part, your average Iraqi that is of the Islamic faith is just trying to do things like the rest of us. Raise their children, provide for their families (several generations under one roof), and get to Heaven by doing what is commanded to them by the Quran. Things like doing good deeds such as helping the poor, respecting elders, live peacefully and do what will honor Allah.

Then you have the problem children that, for the most part, arent even local to Iraq. They follow the instructions of some cult leader as law because of a major detail that terrorist cells take advantage of; illiteracy. This is what their true Islam is all about, beating women on a whim or bestiality is considered normal because women are only vessels for having children. Ive seen the IR footage on the last one and seen it in person on the first one. If these leaders are so righteous, why dont they strap on a bomb or pick up an AK-47 and come out to attack armed soldiers? Because one, well monkey-stomp them into the ground and two, they are cowards!

I am currently in Iraq for the second time and I have to tell you that the barbaric acts of the slime here is unbelievable! We are currently in the "Holy Month of Ramadan" and you would never know it. They don't follow their own beliefs as written in their Quran. We were in a village not far from our base (somewhere in Iraq) and one of the elders told us that there was a family that had been visited by "Evil People". This is what the locals call insurgents and rightly so. It turned out that they had executed the entire family because the father had not joined them in the Jihad. The father, mother and four children were executed as an example. The children ranged in ages from 4 to 10. This is the norm around here.

Now for the good news, the four year-old daughter survived a gunshot wound to the head. She has been brought to our medical facility where she is a participant in an all volunteer program by the soldiers here. The program is affectionately referred to by the nurses as "Daddy time or Mommy time". Soldiers, whether they have children or not, spend countless hours playing, talking to, or just holding children that have been injured or have lost families to insurgents. I am not sure who it helps out more, us or the kids. The outlook for the little girl that survived is very good. The local tribal leader was outraged when he was informed by us that this happened in his land and has vowed to do something about it. Let me put it to you this way, tribal justice is far swifter and fitting than the courts here. As of this time, the village has come under the protection of "friendlies" that can be trusted. Believe it or not, there are good people here. The problem is that they won't get ratings on the news so you never hear about it.

If you have any doubts to whether President Bush made the right decision, relax! Take it from one soldier who has to put his life and the lives of his soldiers on the line everyday here, he made the right choice! I am the last person that wants to be away from his family or have his soldiers or me hurt or killed in this place and we still believe in what we do. If securing a fruit market in the middle of Nowhere, Iraq will insure freedom for the people here, I will gladly do so.
posted by coconut commando at 5:07 PM

coconut commando
LOL
GO Team AMERICA.
FU@K YEH!!!!
:-)