Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

The chant of "Hamas" has be firing rockets into Israel for 8years has a certain truth. Perhaps, if the Israelis had negotiated positively and honestly and applied the appropriate mandates during this the 8year period, the situation may not have deteriorated to the present state of affairs.

Fred .... the first part of your post was total rubbish, but at least the last part was sensible .... unfortunately, it is radical politicians, rabble-rousers, and outsiders with vested interest in unrest and worse who always command centre stage

.

--->ALL

The problem is that Israel was created out of various acts of terror carried out against the indigenous population and too against the British forces there.

it was eventually 'legitimised' by a UN resolution, and since then, Israel has chosen to ignore virtually all UN resolutions as a result. But it is always happy to refer to the first one that actually created and 'legitimised' it as a country against the wishes of the indigenous peoples.

It has also been on the receiving end of many billions of dollars of US support/arms, and despite not being a 3rd world country, is the largest recipient of foreign aid from the USA. No other country comes close.

Israel was armed to the teeth by the USA since its creation, and so had the luxury of no longer relying on terrorist acts to get their voices heard and their will enforced.

Nowadays, its forces simply press firing buttons in Apache attack helicopters and in the most modern warplanes in the US arsenal, along with tanks and artillery pieces, and the Palestinians were simply labelled as terrorists as they tried to resist against such overwhelming odds.

They had very good teachers in learning the tactics of terror against their own people. Perhaps people should try and remember Deir Yassin as one example that immediately springs to mind.

This is not quite as simple a war against 'terrorist' Hamas as so many would like to call it.

This is all about a massive injustice perpertrated against the Palestinian people for well over half a century, and by a force so powerful and one sided that it is surprising how they have even managed to resist to this day.

I posted earlier, the quote.....

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

Rather NOT surprisingly, nobody came out to tell us who uttered those very words.

Those words came out of the mouth of David Ben Gurion. I presume most of you know who that was.

Regards,

THE COUNT!

of course DbG (sic! - Ben was not a second christian (lol!) name), great leader as he may have been, has long had his bones turn to dust ..... i also suspect that the quotation is taken out of context, for there are certainly two ways of reading, "They see but one thing ..... " - i.e. the arabs (primarily an agglomeration until very recently of small nomadic tribes) are as bigotted (as the jews) and choose to see but one thing

No I didn't geddit COUNT but you were you were spot on about me having a moment of madness ... recently.

Ask that Welsh flag burning tw*t if you bump into him (preferably whilst driving a steamroller) :-)

All the best.

And u can stuff that where the sun don't shine too Dailos :-)

I have copied this reference again, just in case some have missed. I am glad I am not as isolated in my views as suggested.

Thanks for drawing my attention to it!

Eyes in the back of your head.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2008/historical-amnesia-gaza-p1.php

THE COUNT

Dil has an undeclared interest in this fighting did you know he was an
arms dealer in that region?
He has been supplying weapons to Hamas for years according to Martini,
who sent me this evidence and asked me to show everybody....

--->DAILOS

:-)

If only they had something quite as sophisticated.

Regards,

THE COUNT!

Don't believe I have been called a Zealot before Fred, although I'm sure worse. I would like to think I have a pragmatic view of most topics rather than the one-sided stance you prefer to adopt. Actually you reminded me of a trip I enjoyed immensely a few years ago when I was lucky enough to visit the Masada and indeed some other rather special historical sites in Israel.

I love the sheep Dailos,....!, where did you get the army kit from ?.

rawdm999,

Raw, yes it was flippancy. Like many pseudonyms I thought there was a layer of humour in its choice. (A bit like my own choice.) But with humour there is generally a point.
I thought in the first posting there were some interesting remarks and did not notice any personal attack. The second posting was of a slightly different nature. My answer to the whether Hamas was elected democratically, is that you read the information in the media around that period. It appeared that the World Press seem to think that it was a relatively free election. The result of that election was seen, as less questionable than the Bush elections in America.

I disagree with the views you appear to voice in; Ruth mentioned the key words in post 107 she mentioned the dark ages. That part of the world (with the exception of Israel) is still in the dark ages. They are all for destruction and do not create anything but problems.

I think many of the surrounding countries are advancing rapidly, with their social improvements, education and economies. (Based on to some degree on their oil wealth. Britain's industrial revolution and period of Wealth was based on Coal, Iron and Steel.)
I wonder where Israel would be without its colossal financial support of America. But maybe the future financial support for Israel, may be seen as a drain on the American economy, especially as Obama seems to have found a new method of political fund raising. Interesting to watch.

I feel at the moment the logic and action of Israels government, is similar to "Hitlers Final Solution". It will fail.

I think Fred may have some sort of a point, albeit that his defence of Hamas is somewhat clumsy.

This being that Israel's response to Hamas' rockets is now being regarded as somewhat 'disproportionate'.

Another side effect is that Muslim young men are beginning to feel somewhat aggrieved and supportive towards the Palestinian underdog and this feeling is predominating on an international basis. Thus Israels' actions, although one might feel they are 'entitled' to have some defence against an aggressor's persistent rocket attacks, are not being totally viewed as being conducive towards peacekeeping in the medium or long term.

Sooner or later, both sides are going to have to sit down and negotiate a peaceful way forward. It is my belief that Israel wish to dramatically reduce Palestine's defences (eg, tunnels, etc, etc) before even considering doing so. And the reason for this is the utter and complete distrust that Israel has towards any and all political factions in Palestine. Israel and its Jews have a massive history of being persecuted and are utterly determined it will never happen again.

The sooner the world can collapse any and all religions then the better as far as I am concerned. They are all an abomination.

Of course, without religion, then the guidelines on morality for the masses completely goes out of the window. We would need an alternative international set of morality guidelines and rules.

Let's start with

Rule No 1. Do unto others as you would wish them to do unto you.

Rule No 763. All services to homes should be installed in easily accessible conduits and under paved pathways.

Regarding the above sheep.....we shall have to call it :"The Muttonerminator 2" !.

I feel at the moment the logic and action of Israels government, is similar to "Hitlers Final Solution". It will fail

Personally I think any comparison of Hitler's Final Solution in any context to Isreal is quite disgraceful.

I find it hard to believe that any rational, normal human being could believe the comparison is anything less than apt and I must therefore assume Fred that you're either not normal or you're taking some perverse sort of pleasure in eliciting an outraged response(s).

Quite frankly it's not worth discussing such an idiotic comment any further.

Pth,
Your response is partially expected. The comparison, which I made referring to the present Israeli governments actions with that of Hitlers Final Solution, has been voiced many international News Broadcasting sites as well as in the media as a whole. Also, I have spoken to various friends who share the same dismay about the current Middle East situation as I do.

Yesterday, once again I was watching a program on the TV about the Holocaust and was horrified by how the actions and how the mass exterminations of Jews and other Nationalities were orchestrated.

One of the distressing features to me was, how a small body of individuals were able to manipulate and coerce public opinion firstly, and then get others to participate such abhorrent behaviour with impunity. Not all those directing or carrying out the crimes were Germans.

Also, in Poland at the time of the Ghettos, that how some of the Poles as well asother nationalities were prepared to carry out the oppression for financial gain. Later utilising, the throw off remarks of; if we didnt, somebody else would or it made good business sense!.

The latter two remarks similar to some attitudes showed of these threads.

To me the observations I have made seem pertinent.

=============

I remember from the crazy time of the Vietnam war the following lyrics which seem me be relevant, reminding me that the only beneficiaries of war are the Arms Manufactures, the loony left and the loony right.


With God On Our Side.

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And the land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

The Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns on their hands
And God on their side.

The First World War, boys
It came and it went
The reason for fighting
I never did get
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And then we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war comes
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

WHERE HAVE ALL THE FLOWERS GONE

Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the flowers gone?
Girls have picked them every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young girls gone?
Taken husbands every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young men gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone?
Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Covered with flowers every one
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?

=====================================

Just got back from this morning's rally in Trafalgar Square.

I had a very interesting conversation with a couple of young Israeli women from towns in the South that had been subject to rocket attacks. They had come with their children to stay with family the UK soon after the latest round of troubles started.

One told me that "so long as Hamas supporters hate Israel more than they love their own children then the tide of suicide bombers will go on and on".

Another statement that struck me with its simplicity and truthfullness was "we just want peace for our children - they seem to want martyrdom for theirs"

Each of these short phrases sums the problem up quite neatly. If only hamas would invest in infrastructure, medicine and economy instead of weapons, then perhaps Gaza could shift their principle exports away from international terrorists, suicide bombers and spent rocket cases and the Gazans could take their proper place in the world alongside other growing and flourishing new nations.

G

This video from Wednesday night's rally (in support of Israeli action) and protest (against Israeli action) outside the Israeli embassy.



Note which way the police face: on the protest side (black red white & green flags) they face towards the pro Hamas as if trouble is expected from the protestors. On the pro-Israel (blue and white/Union Flags) side they face away from the demonstrators as if trouble is expected from outside the protestors.