Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Sanity has been described as sharing common reality and being able to act accordingly within it prescribed boundaries.

Some states of madness have been described as an inability to recognise the prescribe boundaries and with attempts to force the beliefs on to others.

=========================================

In spite of being defined or abused by some posters as being amongst other in a state of madness, it would seems that much of what I have written on this board accords with general opinion held by international bodies.

I think the purveyors of abuse should therefore consider their own mental states.

But it will seems that many will remain is with their own fixed beliefs and not be prepared to revise them.

===================================

Interest to me is that the present Israeli administration spokesmen/women use the same approach when reflecting on the findings of the UNITED NATIONS HUMAN
RIGHTS COUNCIL .

Making attempts to denigrate the body, its members and their opinions

Although, one of the Council members is said to be, an eminent Zionist scholar.

It seems that the use of personal attacks with attempts at character assassination and denigration are the only tools of those who have lost an argument are able to resort to.
======================================
Some posters on these threads have much in common.
========

I have cut and pasted a little of the findings below. The whole article seems to me worth reading!
http://www.agi.it/world/news/200910161442-pol-ren0050-gaza_un_human_rights_council_slaps_israel

AZA: UN HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL SLAPS ISRAEL
(AGI) - Geneva, October 16
The United Nations Human Rights Council has adopted the Goldstone report on the Israeli offensive last January in Gaza which accuses both Israel and Hamas of having committed war crimes.
The adoption of the report passed with 25 votes in favor, 6 against and 11 abstentions. In the 575 page report the investigating commission led by Richard Goldstone, a former constitutional judge from South Africa, asks Israel and Hamas to investigate the war crimes committed during the Cast Lead offensive between December 27 2008 and January 18 2009 in a credible way and within six months, asking otherwise for the UN Security Council to remand the question to the International Court of Justice.
Israel tried in every possible way to prohibit consideration of the Goldstone report, which it considers spoiled, during the special session of the council in Geneva.

Premier Benjamin Netanyahu has said the report awards terrorism and is a threat to the peace process. In the resolution, supported by the Arab and African member states and the Islamic Conference , ''the recommendations contained in the report are adopted'' and all institutions, including the UN, are asked to encourage the implementation''.

The resolution contains numerous references to Israel, including one to the ''recent violations of human rights in East Jerusalem'', but no one in Hamas; something that brought criticism from Goldstone himself.

And so on!

Slow, just read your posting and in the 60s and 70s shared the same sentiments as you had.

Also share your present opinion of the Israeli state and its hierarchy.

However, the deed is done and although grossly unfair to the Palestinians the situation probably has to be accepted if not respected.

But I think that the Israeli are continuing to be abusive to the Palestinians and breaking International law and committing WAR CRIMES whenever it suits them.


(The Palestinians are not innocent of the latter.)

Perhaps, David should not have been allowed his catapult when he fought Goliath.

But the international mood towards Israel is changing and Obamma may bring some fresh ideas to the table. He is certainly less tied to the apron strings of the "Jewish lobby" in America than some of his predecessors.

There is a new "economic reality", which will introduce change onto the political scene.

Hopefully, for the better.

Slow ... did you use to send money to the IRA too ?

IRA have plenty of money. I would send it to the other side. We have not seen the last of the Irish conflict. When the Republicans realise that power sharing does not mean a united Ireland and never will, the troubles will start again.

Haystack,

I am feeling paranoid again.

Are you following me around?

Not quite sure what you are hoping will happen in Northern Ireland?

Not sure that if I lived in NI, that I would like to be very receptive to the present or future "English Government".


Even the Scots are getting shirty, and when I go to Wales again I will try to stir Rhodri Morgan up again.

(We were in the same year at school.)


(Must be lonely in Scotland if you are a tory!)

I am not hoping that anything will hapen in NI. I am just being realistic. The Unionists jsut want things to stay the way they are with unityt within the Uk and it looks like they will get their wish. The Republicans are playing along as they wrongly think this is a route to a united Ireland. At some stage they will find they are wrong and NI will stay part of UK for many years to come.

I will stop after I write the following.

The Northern Irish are worn out by fighting.

Other than a few criminal lunatic minor groups there is no wish for a fresh spate of killings.

An independent self governing NI is a possibility. (Just feasible.)

If you haven't read "A Star Called Henry" by Roddy Doyle try it. A very readable but horrendous account of the early conflicts.

Right, I am off to cook my pork!

8-)

As opposed to porking....

for any that may have biased opinions either way, suggest a watch of this United Nations brief

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo&feature=player_embedded

Dil - 16 Oct 2009 17:07 - 1292 of 1298
"Slow ... did you use to send money to the IRA too ?"

Is this the standard of mentality of some folk on here? Did I say I supported Hammas?

I've sent old clothes and given money to the NGO's trying to help the ordinary folk in Gaza, that's all, why do you ask if I'd given money to the IRA?

And actually, I agree with Fred, if I'd been born in N.I. I might not be too fond of or 'receptive' to the UK government either. Would you be?
Is it always 'Might is right' to you?

So no, 'Dil'.. I'm not an IRA supporter, as you'd obviously like to mischieviously try to make stick.

However, I AM old enough to remember that the troubles, (in the late 60's and early 70's at least), came about because ordinary men and women went on peace marches, asking that they be treated fairly by the ruling goverments of NI/UK and be given a fair go at council housing and other services. That's all it was, but was soon hijacked by gunmen for their own aims. They simply wanted to be treated like humans.. like the folk in Gaza do too.. but they were treated like dirt on shoes.

Any more insults you'd like to get of your chest, 'Dil'?

halfup
very interesting U tube video clip from UN council broadcast. It confirms that ordinary civilians are put at risk when terrorists use them as shields, which makes it very diffcult when trying to capture them and obviously on occasions those hiding are aware they are risking their own.

Israel must be proud of itself.



Israel 'cuts Palestinians water'
A girl stands next to a water tank near Nablus, West Bank. Photo: October 2009
Some Palestinians only get 20 litres of water a day, Amnesty says

Israel is denying Palestinians access to even the basic minimum of clean, safe water, Amnesty International says.

In a report, the human rights group says Israeli water restrictions discriminate against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank.

It says that in Gaza, Israel's blockade has pushed the already ailing water and sewage system to "crisis point".

Israel says the report is flawed and the Palestinians get more water than was agreed under the 1990s peace deal.

'Basic need'

In the 112-page report, Amnesty says that on average Palestinian daily water consumption reaches 70 litres a day, compared with 300 litres for the Israelis.


Israel must end its discriminatory policies, immediately lift all the restrictions it imposes on Palestinians' access to water
Donatella Rovera
Amnesty International

Gaza thirsts as sewage crisis mounts
Water shortages plague West Bank

It says that some Palestinians barely get 20 litres a day - the minimum recommended even in humanitarian emergencies.

While Israeli settlers in the West Bank enjoy lush gardens and swimming pools, Amnesty describes a series of Israeli measures it says are discriminating against Palestinians:

* Israel has "entirely appropriated the Palestinians' share of the Jordan river" and uses 80% of a key shared aquifer
* West Bank Palestinians are not allowed to drill wells without Israeli permits, which are "often impossible" to obtain
* Rainwater harvesting cisterns are "often destroyed by the Israeli army"
* Israeli soldiers confiscated a water tanker from villagers who were trying to remain in land Israel had declared a "closed military area"
* An unnamed Israeli soldier says rooftop Palestinian household water tanks are "good for target practice"
* Much of the land cut off by the West Bank barrier is land with good access to a major aquifer
* Israeli military operations have damaged Palestinian water infrastructure, including $6m worth during the Cast Lead operation in Gaza last winter
* The Israeli-Egyptian blockade of Gaza has "exacerbated what was already a dire situation" by denying many building materials needed for water and sewage projects.

The report also noted that the Palestinian water authorities have been criticised for bad management, quoting one audit that described the sector as in "total chaos".

"Water is a basic need and a right, but for many Palestinians obtaining even poor-quality, subsistence-level quantities of water has become a luxury that they can barely afford," Amnesty's Donatella Rovera said.

"Israel must end its discriminatory policies, immediately lift all the restrictions it imposes on Palestinians' access to water."

ETC.

Just a reminder of why there is conflict in the Middle East and Israel's continued abuse of UN resolutions.

"Clinton: Israel must do more on settlement issue
US secretary of state moderates her praise for Jewish state's offer to restrain, but not stop, its building of settlements in Palestinian areas
News agencies

Published: 11.02.09, 15:33 / Israel News


US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Monday moderated her praise for Israel's offer to restrain, but not stop, its building of settlements in Palestinian areas.

She said it falls short of US expectations but would have a "significant and meaningful effect" on limiting the growth of Jewish settlements on land the Palestinians want for their own state.
"The Israelis have responded to the call of the US, the Palestinians and the Arab world to stop settlement activity by expressing a willingness to restrain settlement activity," she told reporters in the Moroccan city of Marrakesh.

"This offer falls far short of what our preference would be but if it is acted upon it will be an unprecedented restriction on settlements and would have a significant and meaningful effect on restraining their growth."

On Saturday her praise of Israel's offer to restrict its settlement activity drew widespread criticism from Arab nations who interpreted it as a softening of the US position on settlements, which stand in the way of a resumption of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.

During a photo-taking session with her Moroccan counterpart, Clinton was asked by a reporter about the Arab reaction, and she responded by reading from a written statement that appeared designed to counter the skepticism about the Obama administration's views on settlements.

"Successive American administrations of both parties have opposed Israel's settlement policy," she said. "That is absolutely a fact, and the Obama administration's position on settlements is clear, unequivocal and it has not changed. As the president has said on many occasions, the United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements."

She also called on the Israelis to do more to improve "movement and access" for Palestinians and on Israeli security arrangements. "

Just to help understanding of the Middle East conflict.


The Israelis really do want peace.




Nov 3rd

Since Mr Obama first called for a halt to building activity in

the West Bank, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has announced Israel will proceed with 3000 new houses that had already been approved.

Both major Palestinian factions -- Mr Abbas's Fatah faction and the militant Hamas faction that runs the Gaza Strip -- are strongly opposed to any talks without a freeze on settlements.

For those interested in the manipulation of power by the different lobbies and the slow resolution of the the Middle East problem it is worth having a look at :

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches

no doubt that will be a completely objective and unbiased programme ..... believe that and you'll believe anything

I watched the program last night. It was was excellent. A part of it was about the strong pro Israel lobby here and in the US and the attempts to make people who are anti Israel out to be anti Jewish. I am very anti Israel and regard it it as one of the worst behaved countries in the world regarding human rights abuses, but I am firmly pro Jewish. There should be no link between the two things.

unfortunately most are incapable of such differentiation .... mind you, anti-semitism is close to the surface in any case in many european countries, UK being one of them

Very true. The French for instance have had a long history of anti-semitism, in fact more pronounced than that of Germany until AH artificially increased it. Most of the roots of anti-semitism in the UK apart from substantial amounts hundreds of years ago, was the mass immigration about 100+ years ago. This became a problem as the immigrants tended to live in specific areas.

The East End of London was a prime example. The same area now is occupied by Asians, with the same problems. The local population resent the newcomers. I had an office in Brick Lane, right in the middle of this area. What was interesting, was that a tiny number of authodox jewish businesses remained from the early 1900s. I used to speak to a few of them. I found out later that they thought I was Jewish.

One of them said to me, "look at that schwartza....." schwartza being Yiddish for black-person. It wasn't the use of the word schwartza that was the problem as it is a pretty neutral word, it was what he said after it. He only said the abuse after it because he thought I was Jewish. When I said "schwartza?", he replied "aren't you Jewish?". I thought it was interesting to see a person who was a member of a minority that is discriminated against saying the same type of abuse against another minority.

schwartzer!
although you are right about it meaning a "black person" it is usually pretty perjorative, just as is the use of schiksa and goy.

actually, anti-semitism is much more seep-seated than that, and throughout europe is an interesting history in itself .....