Why are we again at 10.5p bid?

It doesn't add up...

Good Results + Strong buying pre results + Christmas online buying soon = Price drop

Then again some companies that have debt for equity hanging in the balance, poor results and bankruptcy around the corner and they go up!

Why sell now at a loss?

Wont that be a kick in the teeth when we see 13.5p 14p again!

Best of luck all.

Closed @ 9.75 = - .50/-4.88 per cent
Days range 9.50/10.25
Volume : 3,255,555
Average: 1,420,116
I do not know anything about it so no opinion.Just saw the info and thought
you might like to know.rgds.

Thanks ajren. I'm pretty sure it was a buy. Anyone agree or disagree?

Definitely a buy. Too high at 9.75p to be a sell. MM would not give so much for this many shares.

Someone's out shopping for these at the moment. Don't know why.

Hence the MM tricks. Trying to shake out weak holders to fulfill this big buy order. Buyer wanted them cheap so the MM had to shock a few out from smaller investors.

Would expect the price to tick back up soon.

Hopefully we will get some news soon to explain whats going on.

I expect RTD are on course for an even better 2nd half.

WOW look at ZOO wish we could have some of that..very few trades too.. i,d,ve had some of those put all my available cash here expecting what zoo doing now....:-( ah well xfinger stuck here hoping

On my travels I found this article which is very relevant to RTD at the momentand I felt duty bound to pass it on to you:


THE DEADLY ART OF STOCK MANIPULATION...

In every profession, there are probably a dozen or two major rules. Knowing them is what separates the professional from the amateur. Not knowing them at all? Well, lets put it this way: How safe would you feel if you suddenly found yourself piloting (solo) a Boeing 747 as it were landing on an airstrip? Unless you are a professional pilot, you would probably be frightened out of your wits and would soil your underwear. Hold that thought as you read this essay because I will explain to you how market manipulation works. What the professionals and the securities regulators know and understand, which the rest of us do not, is this.

"RULE NUMBER ONE:

ALL SHARP PRICE MOVEMENTS -- WHETHER UP OR DOWN --ARE THE RESULT OF ONE OR MORE (USUALLY A GROUP OF) PROFESSIONALS MANIPULATING THE SHARE PRICE."

This should explain why a mining company finds something good and nothing happens" or the stock goes down. At the same time, for NO apparent reason, a stock suddenly takes off for the sky! On little volume! Someone is manipulating that stock, often with an unfounded rumour. In order to make these market manipulations work, the professionals assume: (a) The Public is STUPID and (b) The Public will mainly buy at the HIGH and (c) The Public will sell at the LOW. Therefore, as long as the market manipulator can run crowd control, he can be successful. Let's face it: The reason you speculate in such markets is that you are greedy AND optimistic. You believe in a better tomorrow and NEED to make money quickly. It is this sentiment which is exploited by the market manipulator. He controls YOUR greed and fear about a particular stock. If he wants you to buy, the company's prospects look like the next Microsoft. If the manipulator wants you to desert the sinking ship, he suddenly becomes very guarded in his remarks about the company, isn't around to glowingly answer questions about the company and/or GETS issued very bad news about the company. Which brings us to the next important rule.

"RULE NUMBER TWO:

IF THE MARKET MANIPULATOR WANTS TO DISTRIBUTE (DUMP)HIS SHARES, HE WILL START A GOOD NEWS PROMOTIONAL CAMPAIGN."

Ever wonder why a particular company is made to look like the greatest thing since sliced bread? That sentiment is manufactured. Newsletter writers are hired -- either secretly or not -- to cheerlead a stock. PR firms are hired and let loose upon an unsuspecting public. Contracts to appear on radio talk shows are signed and implemented. Stockbrokers get "cheap" stock to recommend the company to their "book" (that means YOU, the client in his book). An advertising campaign is rolled out (television ads, newspaper ads, card deck mailings). The company signs up to exhibit at "investment conferences" and "gold shows" (mainly so they can get a little "podium time" to hype you on their stock and tell you how "their company is really different" and not a stock promotion.") Funny little "hype" messages are posted on Internet newsgroups by the same cast of usual suspects. The more, the merrier. And a little "juice" can go a long way toward running up the stock price. The HYPE is on. The more clever a stock promoter, the better his knowledge of the advertising business. Little gimmicks like "positioning" are used. Example: Make a completely unknown company look warm and fuzzy and appealing to you by comparing it to a recent success story. The only reason you have been invited to this seemingly incredible banquet is that YOU are the main course. After the market manipulator has suckered you into "his investment," exchanging HIS paper for YOUR cash, the walls begin to close in on you. Why is that?

"RULE NUMBER THREE:

AS SOON AS THE MARKET MANIPULATOR HAS COMPLETED HIS DISTRIBUTION (DUMPING) OF SHARES, HE WILL START A BAD NEWS OR NO NEWS CAMPAIGN."

Your favourite home-run stock has just stalled or retreated a bit formats high. Suddenly, there is a news VACUUM. Either NO news or BAD rumours. I discovered this with quite a few stocks. I would get LOADS of information and "hot tips." All of a sudden, my pipeline was shut-off. Some companies would even issue a news release CONDEMNING me ("We don't need 'that kind of hype referring to me!). Cute, huh? When the company wanted fantastic hype circulated hither and yon, there would be someone there to spoon-feed me. The second the distribution phase was DONE....ooops! Sorry, no more news. Or, "I'm sorry. He's not in the office." Or, "He won't be back until Monday." The really slick market manipulators would even seed the Internet newsgroups or other journalists to plant negative stories about that company. Or start a propaganda campaign of negative rumours on all available communication vehicles. Even hiring a "contraire" or special PR firm" to drive down the price. Even hiring someone to attack the guy who had earlier written low about the company. (This is not a game for the faint-hearted!) You'll also see the stock drifting endlessly. You may even experience a helpless feeling, as if you were floating in outer space without a lifeline. That is exactly HOW the market manipulator wants you to feel. See Rule Number Five below. He may also be doing this to avoid the severe disappointment of a "dry hole" or a "failed deal." You'll hear that oft-cried refrain, "Oh well, that's the junior minerals exploration business... very risky!" Or the oft-quoted statistic, "Nine out of 10 businesses fail each year and this IS a Venture Capital Start-up stock exchange." Don't think it wasn't contrived. If a geologist at a junior mining company wasn't optimistic and rosy in his promise of exploration success, he would be replaced by someone who was! Ditto for the high-tech deal, in a world awash with PhD's. So, how do you know when you are being taken? Look again at Rule #1.Inside that rule, a few other rules unfold which explain how a stock price is manipulated.

"RULE NUMBER FOUR:

ANY STOCK THAT TRADES HUGE VOLUME AT HIGHER PRICES SIGNALS THE DISTRIBUTION PHASE."

When there was less volume, the price was lower. Professionals were
accumulating. After the price runs, the volume increases. The professionals bought low and sold high. The amateurs bought high (and will soon enough sell low). In older books about market manipulation and stock promotion, which I've recently studied, the mark-up price referred to THREE times higher than the floor. The floor is the launch pad for the stock. For example, if one looks at the stock price and finds a steady flat line on the stock's chart of around 10p , then that range is the FLOOR. Basically, the mark-up phase can go as high as the market manipulator is capable of taking it. From my observations, a good mark-up should be able to run about five to ten times higher than the floor, with six to seven being common. The market manipulator will do everything in his power to keep you OUT OF THE STOCK until the share price has been marked up by at least two-three times, sometimes resorting to "shaking you out" until after he has accumulated enough shares. Once the mark-up has begun, the stock chart will show you one or more spikes in the volume -- all at much higher prices (marked up by the manipulator, of course).

"RULE NUMBER FIVE:

THE MARKET MANIPULATOR WILL ALWAYS TRY TO GET YOU TO BUY AT THE HIGHEST, AND SELL AT THE LOWEST PRICE POSSIBLE."

Just as the manipulator will use every available means to invite you to "the party," he will savagely and brutally drive you away from "his stock" when he has fleeced you. The first falsehood you assume is that the stock promoter WANTS you to make a bundle by investing in his company. So begins a string of lies that run for as long as your stomach can take it. You will get the first clue that "you have been had" when the stock stalls at the higher level. Somehow, it ran out of steam and you are not sure why. Well, it ran out of steam because the market manipulator stopped running it up. It's over inflated and he can't convince more people to buy. The volume dries up while the share price seems to stall. LOOK AT THE TRADING VOLUME, NOT THE SHARE PRICE! When earlier, there may have been X amounts of shares trading each day for eight out of 12 trading days (as in the case of CONROY), now the volume has slipped to X amount shares (or so) daily. There are some buyers there, enough for the manipulator to continue dumping his paper, but only so long as he can enlist one or more individuals/services to bang his drum. He may continue feeding the promo guys a string of "promises" and good news down the road." (Believe me, this HAS happened to me!) But, when the news finally arrives, the stock price goes THUD! This is entirely orchestrated

"RULE NUMBER SIX:

IF THIS IS A REAL DEAL, THEN YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE THE LAST PERSON TO BE NOTIFIED OR WILL BE DRIVEN OUT AT THE LOWER PRICES."

Like Jesse Livermore wrote, "If there's some easy money lying around, no one is going to force it into your pocket." The same concept can be more clearly understood by watching the trades. When a market manipulator wants you into his stock, you will hear LOUD noises of stock promotion and hype. If you are "in the loop," you will be bombarded from many directions. Similarly, if he wants you out of the stock, then there will be orchestrated rumours being circulated, rapid-fired at you again from many directions. Just as good news may come to you in waves, so will bad news. You will see evidence of a VERY sharp drop in the share price with HUGE volume. That is you and your buddies running for the exits. If the deal is really for real, the market manipulator wants to get ALL OF YOUR SHARES or as many as he can... and at the lowest price he can. Where as before, he wanted you IN his market, so he could dump his shares to you at a higher price, NOW when he sees that this deal IS for real, he wants to pay as little as possible for those same shares... YOUR shares which he wants you to part with, as quickly as possible. The market manipulator will shake you out by DRIVING the price as lows he can. Just as in the "accumulation" stage, he wants to keep everything as quiet as possible so he can snap up as many of the shares for himself, he will NOW turn down, or even turn off, the volume so he can repeat the accumulation phase. The accumulation phase was TOP SECRET. The noise level was deadingly silent. As soon as the insiders accumulated all their shares, they let YOU in on the secret.

"RULE NUMBER SEVEN:

CONVERSELY, YOU WILL OFTEN BE THE LAST TO KNOWWHEN THIS DEAL SHOWS SIGNS OF FAILURE."

Twenty-twenty hindsight will often show you that there was a "little stumble" in the share price, just as the "assays were delayed" or the deal didn't go through." Manipulators were peeling off their paper to START the downslide. And ACCELERATE it. The quick slide down makes it improbable for your getting out at more than what you originally paid for the stock... and gives you a better reason for holding onto it "a little longer" in case the price rebounds. Then, the drifting stage begins and fear takes over. And unless you have nerves of steel and can afford to wait out the manipulator, you will more than likely end up selling out at a cheap price. For the insider, market maker or underwriter is obliged to buy back all of your paper in order to keep his company alive and maintain control of it. The less he has to pay for your paper, the lower his cost will be to commence his stock promotion again... at some future date. Even if his company has no prospects AT ALL, his "shell" of a company has some value (only in that others might want to use that structure so they can run their own stock promotion). So, the manipulator WILL buy back his paper. He just wants to make sure that he pays as little for those shares as possible.

"RULE NUMBER EIGHT:

THE MARKET MANIPULATOR WILL COMPEL YOU INTO THESTOCK SO THAT YOU DRIVE UP ITS PRICE SHARES."

Placing a Market Order or Pre-Market Order is an amateur's mistake, A market manipulator (traders included here) can jack up the share price during your market order and bring you back a confirmation at some preposterous level. The Market Manipulator will use the "tape" against you. He will keep buying up his own paper to keep you reaching for a higher price. He will get in line ahead of you to buy all the shares at the current price and force you to pay MORE for those shares. He will tease you and MAKE you reach for the higher price so you "won't miss out." Miss out on what? Getting your head chopped off, that's what! One can avoid market manipulation by not buying during the huge price spikes and abnormal trading volumes, also known as chasing the stock to a higher price.

"RULE NUMBER NINE:

THE MARKET MANIPULATOR IS WELL AWARE OF THE MOTIONS YOU ARE EXPERIENCING DURING A RUN UP AND A COLLAPSE AND WILL PLAY YOUR EMOTIONS LIKE A PIANO."

During the run up, you WILL have a rush of greed which compels you to run into the stock. During the collapse, you WILL have a fear that you will lose everything... so you will rush to exit. See how simple it is and how clear a bell it strikes? Don't think this formula isnt tattooed inside the mind of every manipulator. The market manipulator will play you on the way up and play you on the way down. If he does it very well, he will make it look like someone else's fault that you lost money! Promise to fill up your wallet? You'll rush into the stock. Scare you into losing every penny you have in that stock? You'll run away screaming with horror! And vow to NEVER, ever speculate in such stocks again. But many of you still do.... The manipulator even knows how to bring you back for yet another play. What actors! No wonder Vancouver is sometimes called "Hollywood North."

"FINAL RULE:

A NEW BATCH OF SUCKERS ARE BORN WITH EVERY NEW PLAY."

The Financial Markets are a Cruel, Unkind and Dangerous Playing Field, one place where the newest amateurs are generally fleeced the most brutally.... usually by those who KNOW the above rules. Just as I have a duty to ensure that each of you understand how this game is played, YOU now have that same duty to guarantee that your fellow speculator understands these rules. Just as I would be a criminal for not making this data known to you, YOU would be just as criminal to keep it a secret. There will always be an unsuspecting, trusting fool whom the rabid dogs will tear to shreds, but it does NOT have to be this way. IF every subscriber made this essay broadly known to his friends, acquaintances and family, and they passed it on to their friends, word of mouth could cause many of these market manipulators to pause. IF this effort were done strenuously by many, then perhaps the financial markets could weed out the crooked manipulators and the promoters could bring us more legitimate plays. The stock markets are a financing tool. The companies BORROW money from you, when you invest or speculate in their companies. They want their share price going higher so they can finance their deal with less dilution of their shares... if they are good guys. But, how would you feel about a friend or family member who kept borrowing money from you and never repaid it? That would be theft, plain and simple. So, a market manipulator is STEALING your money.

Regards

Guy

Thank you for this extremely illuminating article - there is so much to be aware of and after having read this, it STILL makes it difficult to appreciate what is actually going on - I take it that you are endorsing holding RTD???

Hold! Hold! Hold!

Very sobering. I have printed this to digest at my leisure. I am a relatively noob and much to learn.

However what are you say regarding RTD. Hold?

Also there has been a large trade around one and a quater million in black is this a buy?

Washlander,
I'm new myself and did not know what the different types meant so I went to HELP TRADES, and printed the list. The X means "cross at the same price" whatever that means.

I have seen this on level 11 but um unsure of the meaning. Maybe one of the pros can help

Yes another BIG BUY.

Put that into the context of what we have read in that article I pasted about Market Manipulation and it all starts to become clear.

The MM has run the price into the ground. The small amateur investors through fear, lack of patience, greed (they think they will make more elsewhere) or boredom have or are selling.

Meanwhile the smart money (inside money) hoovers up all the cheap shares and builds up a big stake.

Then in due course the releasing of good news starts. The rumours. The positive sentiment. A nice update from the company. And so the price rockets. The MM starts walking it back up. Everyone who isn't in RTD thinks hang on! I'm missing out! Look whats happening over there, mine haven't moved for ages. So they dump their YOO shares or whatever and leap onto the RTD bandwagon and off it all goes again.

Then just before and during the peak the smart money starts to sell.

And so it goes on. And why? Because people love it! They love to see a share which gains 10% or 20% in a few days. It's a way to catch peoples interest in small cap companies. But it can't keep going up, so sometimes it has to go down. People get burnt and lose money but to those who don't it's all part of the fun. And memories are short and greed is king, so when the price goes up we all make the same mistake again and again.

So what is our battle against this terrible manipulation? How can we know what's going on in MM land?

Well one good way is to study the trades. When we can see what we can see now with RTD - we know something's afoot. Because in amongst all the small sellers are some BIG buyers. Buying up nearly every day. Quietly, without many even realising.

The bad news for the MM is that he is obliged to show what trades have gone through on all stocks each day. The good news is that he doesn't have to tell us if they were buys or sells. We have to try and work that out ourselves from studying the prices.

Of course the MM have ways of trying to trick us. Often they will try and sneak the transaction through at the end of the day hoping we don't notice. Or cleverly manipulate the mid price so a buy goes through as an unknown. Or move the price throughout the day so a buy looks like a sell. All very crafty. And it works. Most look at their screens and think - look at all those sells and those unknowns - I'm out!!

So this is my conclusion with RTD. I think this is the quiet before the storm. With the benefit of hindsight I am of course annoyed with myself for not selling up at 13p. Then I could have been buying now (along with the smart money) intead of holding waiting for a recovery.

But something I won't be is a victim of this game and sell at a loss. That would then be two mistakes. I shall wait until the game starts over again and all I will have lost is time.

Thank you for your very true and logical explanations/comments.

If this is true, which I have no doubt it is, then we are looking forward to a very nice rise for those that didn't break loose!

Best of luck all.

I just wish something would happen to RTD soon as its driving me mad.

I am in long term however but when you are on a loss theoretically, it still doesn't help.

Thanks to all guys above for great bits of info.

I am new to the markets so please ignore my ignorance of this but I was most amazed by guysands post of 16 Oct'03 - 12:05, however, it occured to me that
isn't it theoretically possible that we are all part of market manipulation in one way or another?

My brokers T&C's state that they may, without prior reference to me, combine my request - whether buy or sell - with other orders for execution. Now, if 50 average Joes place a buy order for 10,000 a piece surely the broker (MM) has a duty to buy at the best possible price and fill that order (500,000) and maybe shake a few trees to get them?

Again, apologies for my ignorance if this is not how its done...

In the example of RTD there is little chance of there being 50 orders in a day, let alone all from one source. So although your broker reserves the right to clump buys and sells together, in the case of RTD it wouldn't happen.

These days there are many ways to buy stock and quite often people get a quote there and then (be it on the phone or internet) and their individual order is processed immediately. But if you said to your broker - buy me x amount of shares in RTD today at the best price you can then he could put it in with another similar order from someone else.

As far as all being part of market manipulation - yes we often are.

For one simple reason - we all act in the same way.

Most of us are more likey to buy shares that are rising and sell when they are falling, when in fact we should be doing the reverse - buying on red days and selling on blue. Because MM's know that most people act in the same way it is easy for them to create rallys in share price movement and hence a lot of business for themselves.

Guy have a look at the trades for GXN approx 17million shares bought after tick up all showing as sells.

the offer became the bid then the trades went through.

I'm assuming they're buys of course people on the BB's with L2 are certain they are.

all happened after I read the article you posted. As soon as the price ticked up I knew some big trades were coming although I thought they'd be at mid.


R

this is becoming a very interesting and informative forum, you guys have made me want to hold on to my RTD stocks just to see what is going to happen next.

at last. a decent gain so far today.

if we get some good news just prior to crimbo, then this will rocket

by the way, Price fixing is highly ilegal, contact the LSE and ask for a guy called Phillip Cain, he will confirm what i am saying, and if my memory serves me well, CS was all over the news papers for similar things. The difficult thing is making it stick.

ScotInvestor

You said a decent gain so far today. Am I missing something. I am looking on ShareScope and so far today I have seen the price drop from 10p to 9.75p. Are you reffering to mid price?

Javid