starting this thread, which i hope will be short-lived, to keep the board up to date with latest reports gleaned from the net

Doubt it Mr.C more like planning his holiday to Venezuela

Gadaffe reccy

He = God ..... i suspect God may even regard venezuela as the counterbalance to eden!

PS - naughty boy! .... your link is dated september 2009

Yes I know but maybe he was planning ahead.

ABC News report about a Libyan air force jet shot down for violating no-fly zone: it was a single-engine Galeb, apparently. It was shot down by a French fighter.

A Tripoli resident, unnamed for obvious reasons, tells BBC's Newshour: "I'm not exaggerating if I say tens of thousands of young people are arrested. Look, we cannot even now stay close to each other, three four people, for a couple of minutes talking or chatting, I mean it's very danger[ous].

I am not surprised at the Libyan and Egyptian government "opposition" did not have an organised leadership, but you would expect Britains leadership to have considered the consequences of rushing into intervention without a command structure.

Mind, now I see Cameron and Hague are trying to dodge any responsibility for any further actions.

The quickest milkmen in the West.


Perhaps, they have been worrying about they expense claims.

Fred - do try not to be a total pratt ..... you're carrying on (to suit your agenda) as if uk was the sole participant in this, whereas of course it was and is a coordinated operation involving AL, the almost unanimous backing of UN Security Council, and the hardware of a number of other countries, including some of AL unless I am much mistaken

of course no one can predict the exact end-game, but what would be your stance? ...... recommend doing nothing i suppose and then wrung your hands as the libyan rebels were butchered

My Agenda.

What is yours?

What I am getting at, is that there are two posers strutting across the world calling on others to follow them, without the necessary thought of the cost or end game of their actions and little considered or planning to a withdrawal.

At least Obamma did stop to consider of the consequences before agreeing to action for a limited period and now wishes to withdraw from the impending chaos.

(Cameron and Haque, are seen to be posing once again for their political following, as a distraction from their destruction of the British economy.)

They have not thought out the basic practical considerations of rushing into another "war". They are two political blustering naivet.

America and Britain did not plan for the aftermath in Iraq and this lack of planning is being repeated in Libya.

This government has been in "power" for 10* months and lacks any sense of direction, other than repeating its "mantras" and back stepping.

After the "January Revolution" in Egypt, as a government they should have been considering the problems in ME and drawing up contingency planning and talking with international allies of possible actions and command structures etc..

I have sympathy for the actions of N.F.Zones, which have been implemented in Libya, but those actions have an ongoing moral responsibilities for Britain, France, US and others. That probably means the use of ground forces and providing an interim governing structure, until "free" elections have a mandate from the "ordinary" Libyans.

Also, the present actions has raised the expectancy of the "West" aiding other revolutionaries in the ME. (Including those involved with Israel.)

It is murky to say the least.

Doubt the London 250,000 protest today will be as interesting unless the police try the kettle tactic, or shoot one of the swampy type students.

how did i know israel would somehow be worked into the thread?

as for me, i don't have an agenda, but i absolutely support the action that is being taken in Libya by UN/NATO - which happens to include UK ...... for all sorts of good reasons, and there is no reason for them to be altruistic (they're rarely found outside Utopia), M/E is a key area for world (relative) peace and economic stability .... in these dangerous times, Libya assuredly cannot just be left for the antagonists to pulp each other to oblivion, with help from certain outside agencies who are intent on destabilisation.

in one breath you berate the UK gov't for lacking direction, and with the next berate them for taking a lead role ..... you would seemingly have the various powers just sit around endlessly discussing what might be done in M/E in general while taking no action whatsoever, and equally presume that all and sundry have meanwhile piled in without a thought

as i said, you're acting like a total pratt ..... i think you actually have decent brain, so why not engage it constructively instead of just sounding off like a bar-room boor?

Cynic,

We all have agenda, sometimes overt and sometime covert.

(Unless. one is reacting mindlessly, which sometimes it seems to me you do.)

Israel is part of the M.E.

Not above it or below it. but in its midst.

Many of the results of the ME upheavals will have and effect on that State.

Notice some utterances from Egypt now lost some of the leaders Israel previously bribed.

I think Cameron is more interested in his own personal political gain than the Libyans and Hague appears a little more reticent or more appreciative of the complexities of the "field" which they are entering into.

It would have more sensible to get the leaders of the "West" on board earlier and not defining of the action HE THOUGHT APPROPRIATE. (Interesting, for political and economic reasons America is in a hurry to get out as soon as possible, leaving it to the "Willing" or "Unwilling". The latter includes the AL. Italy, Germany and much of NATO

Britain is no longer a Military force, Economic Force or because of past activities a Political force. No longer is it a political leader and needs to operate on cooperation and preferably through European cooperation.

As far as being a "bar-room" bore is concerned, I think you have already supped to much and doing so has addled you thought processes.

Good luck. I think you may need it.

Almost every thing in the ME has implications for Palestine (currently temporarily called Israel).

fred - the word was and is intentionally "boor" ..... i know you want to swing or even highjack this thread so its focus shifts to israel/gaza and a political discussion about uk (and usa) politics .... re the former, see below; the latter is only one smallish part of a much larger coalition that rightly ( i and most others think) or wrongly (you and comparatively few) perceives the demise of MG being an important element to seeing at least reasonable peace return to the region.

hayseed - please note that the thread about ISRAEL is the gaza thread ..... israel has little impact or even involvement with the present unrest in the rest of m/e ...... frankly, the gaza issue is a minor sideshow relative to far more reaching issues at stake with the widespread disturbances throughout the economically and politically more important areas of the region

Cynic,

You certainly are increasing your talents.

Mind reading and knowing my unspoken wishes. Congratulation, but I think you bordering on the delusional evaluation of your undoubted talents.

Would suggest you count the number of my postings on this thread in comparison to your contributions.

I didn't know that posters had to agree with you, before posting.

The problems in the Middle East are of serious economic importance to the whole world, and if it spreads through Syria and Saudi Arabia the complication may be catastrophic for the West.

That is why America may have been loathed to intervene, as they have tremendous amounts of investments in the area and require at present the Oil etc.. (They may have been right to be cautious.)

Therefore, I agree with much of your last paragraph.

However, Israel is an integral part of the Middle East and has few true friends in the surrounding states and Energy resources may be more important to America than the supporting Israel.

Market pressures and values often count more than morality or loyalty.


Whether, you like it or not, those friends because are getting less everyday due to the recent and ongoing "revolutions".

Remember, when the butterfly flutters its wings, it may cause a earthquake.

Back to my marinating, before my wife tells me off. (Again and again.)

Did I mention Gaza? No!

fred - the disproportionate problems between israel and the palestinians are exactly that, and are thus little more than a distraction, much as you and hayseed might like to think otherwise .... as for america, i suspect its apparent caution, or whatever you wish to call it, is somewhat removed from the reality of its involvement - it cannot be otherwise, for the reasons you state .....

meanwhile, we all wait with some trepidation as to how things will evolve

You might think that the Israel/Palestine conflict is just a distraction. More and more the pro democracy forces in these Arab countries are mentioning Israel in their comments. I just saw a discussion on TV a few minutes ago with a pro -democracy leader and a representative of the Jordanian government. The opposion forces mentioned Israel constantly. Israel is very much on the agenda of these potential new governments. Saudi and Egyptian Foreign Ministers met in Cairo Friday night to discuss the increasingly violent actions of Israel towards Gaza and what their response is going to be. The discussions included the head of the armed forces for Egypt. One of the topics was Israeli threats to launch a full scale war on Gaza.

Hays,

"Saudi and Egyptian Foreign Ministers met in Cairo Friday night to discuss the increasingly violent actions of Israel towards Gaza and what their response is going to be."

Being cynical, is the discussion as the present popular mood of the "Street", or is it the intent by the Military in Egypt (who are still in control of the state) and the controlling American supported Saudi hierarchy method of placating the "masses" and distract attention from their own immediate problems.

Ie. consolidating their positions.

If the latter, the discussions or any resulting actions from those discussions could be dangerous to all around.

this is a good debate
main problem as in iraq is religion and the gadaffi family dictators
i wish well to all but i will probably just read in future dont want to ruin a good string
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12873434

hayseed / fred - what have your posts got to do with the situation in libya? .... nothing at all

gibby - nor is religion the underlying cause of the unrest in libya