starting this thread, which i hope will be short-lived, to keep the board up to date with latest reports gleaned from the net

how did i know israel would somehow be worked into the thread?

as for me, i don't have an agenda, but i absolutely support the action that is being taken in Libya by UN/NATO - which happens to include UK ...... for all sorts of good reasons, and there is no reason for them to be altruistic (they're rarely found outside Utopia), M/E is a key area for world (relative) peace and economic stability .... in these dangerous times, Libya assuredly cannot just be left for the antagonists to pulp each other to oblivion, with help from certain outside agencies who are intent on destabilisation.

in one breath you berate the UK gov't for lacking direction, and with the next berate them for taking a lead role ..... you would seemingly have the various powers just sit around endlessly discussing what might be done in M/E in general while taking no action whatsoever, and equally presume that all and sundry have meanwhile piled in without a thought

as i said, you're acting like a total pratt ..... i think you actually have decent brain, so why not engage it constructively instead of just sounding off like a bar-room boor?

Cynic,

We all have agenda, sometimes overt and sometime covert.

(Unless. one is reacting mindlessly, which sometimes it seems to me you do.)

Israel is part of the M.E.

Not above it or below it. but in its midst.

Many of the results of the ME upheavals will have and effect on that State.

Notice some utterances from Egypt now lost some of the leaders Israel previously bribed.

I think Cameron is more interested in his own personal political gain than the Libyans and Hague appears a little more reticent or more appreciative of the complexities of the "field" which they are entering into.

It would have more sensible to get the leaders of the "West" on board earlier and not defining of the action HE THOUGHT APPROPRIATE. (Interesting, for political and economic reasons America is in a hurry to get out as soon as possible, leaving it to the "Willing" or "Unwilling". The latter includes the AL. Italy, Germany and much of NATO

Britain is no longer a Military force, Economic Force or because of past activities a Political force. No longer is it a political leader and needs to operate on cooperation and preferably through European cooperation.

As far as being a "bar-room" bore is concerned, I think you have already supped to much and doing so has addled you thought processes.

Good luck. I think you may need it.

Almost every thing in the ME has implications for Palestine (currently temporarily called Israel).

fred - the word was and is intentionally "boor" ..... i know you want to swing or even highjack this thread so its focus shifts to israel/gaza and a political discussion about uk (and usa) politics .... re the former, see below; the latter is only one smallish part of a much larger coalition that rightly ( i and most others think) or wrongly (you and comparatively few) perceives the demise of MG being an important element to seeing at least reasonable peace return to the region.

hayseed - please note that the thread about ISRAEL is the gaza thread ..... israel has little impact or even involvement with the present unrest in the rest of m/e ...... frankly, the gaza issue is a minor sideshow relative to far more reaching issues at stake with the widespread disturbances throughout the economically and politically more important areas of the region

Cynic,

You certainly are increasing your talents.

Mind reading and knowing my unspoken wishes. Congratulation, but I think you bordering on the delusional evaluation of your undoubted talents.

Would suggest you count the number of my postings on this thread in comparison to your contributions.

I didn't know that posters had to agree with you, before posting.

The problems in the Middle East are of serious economic importance to the whole world, and if it spreads through Syria and Saudi Arabia the complication may be catastrophic for the West.

That is why America may have been loathed to intervene, as they have tremendous amounts of investments in the area and require at present the Oil etc.. (They may have been right to be cautious.)

Therefore, I agree with much of your last paragraph.

However, Israel is an integral part of the Middle East and has few true friends in the surrounding states and Energy resources may be more important to America than the supporting Israel.

Market pressures and values often count more than morality or loyalty.


Whether, you like it or not, those friends because are getting less everyday due to the recent and ongoing "revolutions".

Remember, when the butterfly flutters its wings, it may cause a earthquake.

Back to my marinating, before my wife tells me off. (Again and again.)

Did I mention Gaza? No!

fred - the disproportionate problems between israel and the palestinians are exactly that, and are thus little more than a distraction, much as you and hayseed might like to think otherwise .... as for america, i suspect its apparent caution, or whatever you wish to call it, is somewhat removed from the reality of its involvement - it cannot be otherwise, for the reasons you state .....

meanwhile, we all wait with some trepidation as to how things will evolve

You might think that the Israel/Palestine conflict is just a distraction. More and more the pro democracy forces in these Arab countries are mentioning Israel in their comments. I just saw a discussion on TV a few minutes ago with a pro -democracy leader and a representative of the Jordanian government. The opposion forces mentioned Israel constantly. Israel is very much on the agenda of these potential new governments. Saudi and Egyptian Foreign Ministers met in Cairo Friday night to discuss the increasingly violent actions of Israel towards Gaza and what their response is going to be. The discussions included the head of the armed forces for Egypt. One of the topics was Israeli threats to launch a full scale war on Gaza.

Hays,

"Saudi and Egyptian Foreign Ministers met in Cairo Friday night to discuss the increasingly violent actions of Israel towards Gaza and what their response is going to be."

Being cynical, is the discussion as the present popular mood of the "Street", or is it the intent by the Military in Egypt (who are still in control of the state) and the controlling American supported Saudi hierarchy method of placating the "masses" and distract attention from their own immediate problems.

Ie. consolidating their positions.

If the latter, the discussions or any resulting actions from those discussions could be dangerous to all around.

this is a good debate
main problem as in iraq is religion and the gadaffi family dictators
i wish well to all but i will probably just read in future dont want to ruin a good string
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12873434

hayseed / fred - what have your posts got to do with the situation in libya? .... nothing at all

gibby - nor is religion the underlying cause of the unrest in libya

cynic
i agree not the only reason but it does have its place
great debate

Hardly anyone responds to the ramblings of the board muppet Ricardo and Haystack is so obssessed by the Isreal / Palestine issue I'm surprised he isn't posting the same boring crap on every thread on every financial BB; some people should really get a life.

A dedicated thread for one subject is about to be hijacked to disucss another.

Cynic,

Religion in Libya?

Ummh,

At first, I thought similarly to you, but over the last 7-10 days have notice the the congregating place for the "revolutionaries", is around the mosques.

Also, noticed that many seem to be celebrating by bowing to the West.

How much influence the Mosques have in Libya. I don't know, but still see it as influential.

I would prefer a secular state democracy evolve, but!!!!!!!!.

PS.

I am reminded of a friend, who use to say Religion (the Church) thrives on adversity.

.....

The whole ME area is heavily intertwined. Part of the current problems is due to the propping up of regimes by the US. Egypt was a good example. The peace treaty with Israel suited the US. The same has been true of the area in general. The general population due not share the US's view or policies. Once the regimes, supported by the US, are gone a new agenda should appear. On that basis Israel has a lot to do with the current strife.

The whole region is still displaying the after effects of colonialism. The French left Morocco, Algiers, Tunisia in a mess. Libya, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Israel and many others are the result of artificially created countries. Some were the leftovers of the Ottoman Empire and some were once run by the British. Democratic institutions were not considered when these countries were created. Most of them had some sort of dictatorship in control. These decisions of new borders and population disenfranchisement are now unwinding across the region. One of the last to experience this will be Israel. It was just as artificial as the rest. Libya used to be at least two countries. One was called something like Tripolitania with Tripoli as it capital. The other whose name I can't remember had Benghazi as its capital. I think there was another one as well. They were all Italian colonies and captured from the Turks.

whoops

By far the predominant religion in Libya is Islam with 97% of the population associating with the faith.[1] The vast majority of Libyan Muslims adhere to Sunni Islam, which provides both a spiritual guide for individuals and a keystone for government policy, but a minority (between 5 and 10%) are Ibadis (a branch of the Kharijites), mostly in the Jebel Nefusa and the town of Zuwarah.

Other than the overwhelming majority of Sunni Muslims, there are also small Christian communities, composed exclusively of foreigners. Coptic Orthodox Christianity, which is the Christian Church of Egypt, is the largest and most historical Christian denomination in Libya. There are over 60,000 Egyptian Copts in Libya, as they comprise over 1% of the population alone.[2] There are an estimated 40,000 Roman Catholics in Libya who are served by two Bishops, one in Tripoli (serving the Italian community) and one in Benghazi (serving the Maltese community). There is also a small Anglican community, made up mostly of African immigrant workers in Tripoli; it is part of the Anglican Diocese of Egypt.[3]

Libya was until recent times the home of one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world, dating back to at least 300 BC.[4] A series of pogroms beginning in November 1945 lasted for almost three years, drastically reducing Libya's Jewish population.[5] In 1948, about 38,000 Jews remained in the country. Upon Libya's independence in 1951, most of the Jewish community emigrated. After the Suez Crisis in 1956, all but about 100 Jews were forced to flee.

beware....

Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi[1][variations] (Arabic: معمر القذافي‎ Muʿammar al-Qaḏḏāfī audio (helpinfo); born 7 June 1942), commonly referred to as Colonel Gaddafi, has been the leader of Libya since a military coup on 1 September 1969 where he overthrew King Idris of Libya and established the Libyan Arab Republic.[2] His 42 years in power made him one of the longest-serving rulers in history.[3]

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, Gaddafi's government was considered a pariah state by the West,[4][5] denounced for oppressing internal dissidence, acts of state-sponsored terrorism, assassinations of expatriate opposition leaders, and crass nepotism which amassed a multi-billion dollar fortune for himself and his family.[6] Gaddafi renamed the Libyan Arab Republic to Jamahiriya in 1977, based on his socialist and nationalist political philosophy published in Green Book. In 1979, he relinquished the title of prime minister, and was thereafter called "The Brother Leader" or "The Guide" in Libya's Socialist Revolution.[7][8] Gaddafi was a firm supporter of OAPEC and led a Pan-African campaign for a United States of Africa.[9] After the 1986 Bombing of Libya and the 1993 imposition of United Nations sanctions, Gaddafi established closer economic and security relations with the west, cooperated with investigations into previous Libyan acts of state-sponsored terrorism and paid compensation, and ended his nuclear weapons program, resulting in the lifting of UN sanctions in 2003.

In early February 2011, major political protests, inspired by recent pro-democracy events in Tunisia, Egypt and other parts of the Arab world, broke out in Libya against Gaddafi's government and quickly turned into a general uprising. Gaddafi vowed to "die a martyr" if necessary in his fight against the rebels and external forces.[10][11]

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