Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Cynic, I agree with you. I condemn some of the "daft" actions of the "Palestinians" in the past.

But this is where we are:

Extract from Voice of America yesterday.

Israeli Bombing Continues, Palestinian Death Toll Tops 900
Voice of America


By Luis Ramirez
Jerusalem



12 January 2009
Israeli warplanes have been attacking the homes of Hamas leaders in Gaza, during the 17th day of Israel's assault. Palestinian medical officials say nearly 900 people have died in the attacks, which are showing no signs of letting up.
The fighting between Israeli forces and Hamas raged on, as thousands of Israeli reservists entered the Gaza Strip.
Israeli ground troops battled militants in house-to-house combat, edging closer to the center of Gaza City.

Israel's attacks on Gaza appeared to be less intense, with military officials saying they carried out fewer than 20 bombings - compared to as many as 40 per night during the past few days.

Disproportionate?

Peple keep using this word. What does it mean in the context of responding to thousands of randomly targetted rocket attacks onto civilian villages and towns?

What would be a proportionate response? Do you recommend that Israel send thousands of rockets targetted indiscriminately back into Gaza? Israel tried to 'turn the other cheek' for the past 8,000 attacks and it got them nowhere.

There is no such thing as a proportionate response to terror attacks. What would you suggest to be the proportionate response to 7/7, 911, Bali, Glasgow etc etc etc?

Gausie, No I suggest the negotiating table and both Israel on Palestinians trying to stick to the contracts.

Look at NI. A reasonable negotiated settlement has led to a relatively peaceful NI, with benefit to the majority of the population. There has been "foolish" incidents and the criminal elements would prefer to return to the violent confrontation. Their attempts must be thwarted, but not by bringing in the "troops".

Hopefully, the future in NI will be peaceful.

Fred - negotiation? Israel only left Gaza a few years back after negotiating an agreement that would end rocket attacks. Fat lot of good Israel's concessions did that time around. And what is left to concede in a negotiation after they evicted settlers and completely withdrew last time around? Maybe a new prolonged occupation will give Israel a bargaining chip with which they can try a new negotiated settlement.

You ever heard the expression: "you can't negotiate with terrorists"? This is a classic case in point. Yet Israel keep trying.

Gausie ... the quotation is, "The difference between a wife and a terrorist is that you can always negotiate with a terrorist" ...... get it right man (lol)!

Gausie. I think at the moment the statement should read "Israel is Trying"! Bloody Trying!

Perhaps even "Trying Blood"!

Choccie: So you, like me, are a Spectator reader, then? That's us both marked for life on this thread at least ;-)

--->GAUSIE

Israel itself was created via the use of terrorism, so I'd be careful on how you selectively use the term. Previous Israeli leaders like Ariel Sharon and Menachem Begin were terrorists themselves. Menachem begin was happy blowing up British soldiers in the process....not just dirty Ayrab villagers.

And thanks for Israel being so 'understanding' that she actually forced, what were actually just a bunch of Israeli SETTLERS out of the Gaza strip.

SETTLERS....you do know the meaning of the word don't you? What were they settling exactly? What the hell were they doing there in the first place? Were we really meant to sympathise with them?

Oh, and over the week they were being evicted, how the propaganda machine here in the west went into overdrive regaling us of endless tales of woe on every news broadcast of those poor Israelis being evicted from 'their homes' in order to let those 'dirty terrorist' mussies in instead...oh, how reasonable was Israel being? They were ILLEGAL SETTLERS for fuck's sake....by any stretch of international law.

Yeh Gausie, I bet you felt really glad they were evicted didn't you?

But let's talk about how wonderful and serious Israel has been about getting peace in Israel/Palestine shall we?

While the Palestinians were trying to negotiate peace settlement after peace settlement, the US administrations still couldn't stop Israeli settlements spreading on the West Bank let alone further land seizures within Israel proper. How unreasonable were those dirty Palestinian terrorists, eh?

Negotiating still, despite seeing daily, new settlements going up on the land under negotiation. What other political group on Earth could have accepted such conditions to negotiate under...yet out of pure desperation, they still tried to do so? Some terrorists, eh?

Since 1967, there have been 223 Jewish-only settlements and outposts built on confiscated Palestinian land. Yet you label one side as terrorists, eh?

Since Sep 2000 and excluding the present conflict, 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis against 123 Israeli children by Palestinians. Yet you label one side as terrorists, eh?

Since Sep 2000 and excluding the present conflict, 1,062 Israelis and at least 4,876 Palestinians have been killed. Yet you label one side as terrorists, eh?

Since Sep 2000 and excluding the present conflict, 8,341 Israelis and 33,034 Palestinians have been injured. Yet you label one side as terrorists, eh?

During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians. Presummably, they at least gave a little morsel to the Palestinians in their capacity as 'honest broker' in this conflict (yeh right!). Yet you label one side as terrorists, eh?

Between 1955 to 1992, there have been at least 65 UN resolutions targetting Israel and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. Israel is always happy to mention the one resolution of the UN that legitimised it, yet has ignored all others since. Yet you label one side as terrorists, eh?

I have already said, in a previous post, that 1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. Yet you label one side as terrorists, eh?

And again, I have already said in a previous post, since 1967, 0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel. Yet you label one side as terrorists, eh?

Perhaps it's time to start conceeding that they might just have a grievance, rather than just simply labelling them terrorists and being a further mouthpiece for the Israeli government, and stop the killing of a relatively defenceless population which, in itself, will just create yet another generation of 'martyrs' who will rise up and strike against Israeli targets and more worryingly for me, targets here in the west.

Israel is powerful today...and excessively so...but what a way to go on living...in the hope that Israel will always continue to be disproportionately powerful. Always is one hell of a long time.

They could instead start to stop labelling a whole peoples as terrorists like you have done, and start to allow them some basic dignity and human rights rather than shove them in the narrow strip of land that is Gaza, creating the most densely populated region on Earth, and then further blockading that so that they can't even live a pitiful existence in what is effectively a prison camp, and then cry wolf and bomb the shit out of them when they try to fight back by launching their own rockets, and further try to justify this by saying that they operate using their own people as shields.

If Hamas were such terrorists, why don't you tell us all just how many rockets they launched against Israel during the year long truce...a truce in which Israel still continued to blockade Gaza in a stranglehold it did well to survive in.

They are people too....deserving of some basic human rights, and a massive wrong has been done to them for over 60 years now. They too make great mistakes, but it should still not excuse what is happening to them at the moment.

I think we both know that the truth is that the present Israeli government is worried about elections coming up and chose a 'perfect' period in which to carry this out whilst the USA is in a transition between presidents.

I still like you though, but you make it extremely difficult sometimes. :-)

Oh, and as for that other little video just posted, I am still contemplating whether I should take quite a few more hours out to rip it to shreds, frame by frame, but I am once again under threat from the tax commissioners for a 125 daily fine for not doing my tax returns so I think I'll have to stay clear for now!!!!

Regards,

THE COUNT! .

Ta COUNT!!

Lovely rhetoric.

I believe your principle point (which you make beautifully) is that in your opinion it is Israel that are the terrorists and not Hamas.

But, what's in a name? I don't mind whom you label as terrorists and whom you label as innocent victims. I also don't see what difference it makes to the current conflict.

If you feel that Islamic fundamentalism and the palestinian terror it exports to the western world is soft and fluffy then that's your perogative.

If you're more comfortable getting on a plane with a dodgy looking Palestinian than you are with a dodgy looking Israeli then again that's up to you.

You are entitled to whatever opinions you wish to have, however distorted and silly they may be. You're even entitled to believe Spurs will win the premiership this season. Doesnt make any of it true though.

Vive la difference.

--->GAUSIE

I just love the way you never tackle anyhting head on and just continually spout loads of generality and the labelling of an entire community as terrorists with no actual consideration as to why all of a sudden, a load of these people just decided to embrace 'terror' as you call it.

I like the way that you also casually dismiss past terror acts...with the throwaway comments that I am labelling Israel as the terrorists.

Do you think the Palestinians would need to resort to the methods they do if they had even a fraction of the F16s, the Abrams tanks and the Apache attack helicopters, that their opponents put out against them, to try and mount some sort of defence of themselves?

But just answer me the one question that I posed to you which addresses the one single issue that Israel is using as justification of its current aggression. I'll excuse you the rest.

Q) During that year long truce, how many times did Hamas fire rockets at Israeli towns in breach of the ceasefire?

I think your misguided statement (and popular soundbite) equating 'Islamic fundamentalism and Palestinian terror and saying it is being exported out to the west' just masks a greater degree of ignorance of the issues at play here than a quick bout of Googling could ever repair.

My real point is not that it is Israel that is the terrorist, although their own previous terror tactics (before they were gifted a modern and well equipped, highly technoilogical army) taught the Palestinians well, but that it is also not simply a case of labelling an entire people with that phrase just because it sounds good and acceptable to us here in the west as some sort of justification of what is going on.

I have then gone on to justify my own point with my 'lovely rhetoric' as you put it rather than just fly off with some emotional one or 2 liner stereotype because I can't be bothered to do any real thinking and research of my own. But if it is all just rhetoric, then it has no substance...so you are welcome to challenge any of it, rather than highlight the spelling mistake of a demonstrator who can't spell the word Jews correctly.

Answer the question now, y'hear?


Regards,

THE COUNT!

COUNT!!

It's a tough question to answer because I'm not aware of when 'that year long truce' was. I dont recall there ever being a year long truce. You may be confusing it with the six month truce during which the rocket and mortar fire dropped to just a few hundred shells?

There are charts showing the number of rockets and mortars landed here. The number fired is obviously slighty more.

If you mean during 2008 then there were a total of 1730 rockets and 1528 mortars - just over double the number fired in 2007. But I don't get the point of the question. Even if it were just half a dozen it would be half a dozen too many. How many rockets would you tolerate landing on your house before you got a bit pissed off and decided to do something about it? Crikey - your neighbour kicks off after just one rusty bent nail on his drive. Your argument is akin to saying 'they're not all that bad - look how few planes they crashed on 911'

Give me any year long date range since hamas came to power and I'll get you the figures. It'll be in the thousands.

G

Count, I think you are wasting your time with Gausie. If he says white is black, just nod and pass him by. To me he has blinkered vision, as many Israelis seem to have. Gausie, seems to have the time span of a few minutes with little consideration for the past or the future.

I think your postings with contained information are apt and reasonable, especially when considered with the trivia produce by the "funny gang".

Count, I think you are wasting your time with Gausie. If he says white is black, just nod and pass him by. To me he has blinkered vision as many Israelis seem to have. They tend to have a time span of a few minutes and little consideration for the past or future.

Fred,

Not only are you being condescending yet again, but I think those remarks are actually racially offensive!

You really do like stirring it, don't you Fred.

Gausie and the Count are good mates who have always held opposing views with a passion.

Fred, just for you

5000 israeli troops have rapidly entered Jordan.
Early reports say she is tired and her arse is sore
but she will soldier on ;-)

Hiliary, LAYOL


I this what the present Israeli government people wish to be remembered by:

18th day under attack: Gaza death toll reaches 940 with 4200 injured
Tuesday January 13, 2009 10:03 by Ghassan Bannoura - IMEMC News & Agencies
The Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza reported that the ongoing Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip has left 18 more Palestinians dead on Tuesday.
Shells fired at Gaza believed to contain White Phosphorus
The Ministry of Health stated that the death toll due to the continued Israeli attack have reached 940, and the number of injured has reached 4,200; among the injured 470 are in critical condition. Of the 940 killed, hospital records demonstrate that 280 children, 98 women and 97 elderly people are among the dead.
Since Monday night until the time of this report, Israeli jetfighters continued to target the Gaza Strip, the attackes targeted homes and residential areas in Gaza City, Jabalyia and the costal line.
On Tuesday at dawn Israeli tanks started to move towards Gaza City, local sources reported. Heavy clashes took place between the Palestinian resistance groups and Israeli ground forces, witnesses said. The Hamas movement announced that its fighters managed to stop the tanks from advancing into Gaza City. Witnesses said clashes are still being heard all around the city.
Dr. Mo'awiah Hassanen, director of the Emergency and Ambulance department in the Ministry of Health in Gaza, announced that half of those injured are children. He added that the doctors are witnessing a new type of injury, due to the use by the Israeli Army in Gaza of new bombs that contains White Phosphorus and Dense Metals
Dr. Hassanen told IMEMC over the phone that doctors are witnessing burns and disfigured bodies of victims, adding that the injured are arriving with a powder on their skin. On Saturday, Human Rights Watch (HRW) urged the Israeli Army to stop using White Phosphorus in its artillery shells against the Gaza Strip. Researchers of HRW said that they observed white-phosphorus use on January 9th and January 10th near Gaza City and Jabalia,.
Using this type of artillery, in this manner is banned by international humanitarian law, the group added. The shells are capable of burning human flesh right down to the bone and are capable of setting structures, fields and other civilian facilities on fire. The group added that using these kind of shells against one of the most densely populated areas in the world causes magnified harm, and called on Israel to stop using these shells.
Israeli online daily, Haaretz, reported that the Israeli Army Spokesperson did not comment on the report. The Israeli Army embarked on its military offensive on Saturday, December 27th, 2008. Israeli warplanes began the military operation by shelling every possible Palestinian security posts in Gaza. In the following days, the air raids were expanded; hospitals, homes, blacksmith workshops, schools, mosques, ambulances, media and UN relief efforts were targeted.
Day and night, the entire Palestinian coastal region has been under attack. On Saturday, January 3rd, 2009, Israeli ground forces entered the Gaza strip and have since divided Gaza into two sections. The Israeli government decided on Sunday night to intensify its operation in Gaza and extend host
---------------------

Look up for yourselves phosphorus burns and the reasons for banning in civilians areas.
It is lucky that it is not your children suffering.

Ruth, as I would expect from you!

There will always be 2 sides to every story and each side will have their own support.

Whilst I have sympathy for the civilian caualties, I can understand how they happen.It is regrettable but if hmas insist on operating from within densely populated areas then they must shoulder some blame. Sadly the value placed on the life of a human being is less in some areas of the worlds than others.Hamas comes out with this rhetoric bulls**t which is lie after lie.
They came to power through fear and violence after major gun battles with Fatah in the Strip.they have no mandate. They care only for their own leadership,stuffing their pockets with ill gotten gains at the expense of their so called "people".
It is my contention that they care not for the damage and suffering they cause as long as they can run away to their properites in Edgware Road when they feel like it.

Israel is not calling for the destruction and annihilation of the Palestinians.The Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalists do call for the destruction of Israel and have done so since 1948.

You go on about the strength of the Israeli army-so what???? Without it where would Israel be today after seeing off the Arab nations in 5 wars?

The truth of the matter is ...well you all know what it is so why bother saying so.

Sivad,

Israel is not calling for the destruction and annihilation of the Palestinians.The Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalists do call for the destruction of Israel and have done so since 1948.


No. Israel has being doing this for years.


What do you expect Hamas or similar groups to do? Paint themselves white, stand in the middle of a deserts with their placards. Give the co-ordinates to the Israelis and suggest that they should either bomb them from 5 miles up in the skies or send in a few nice clean rockets. Perhaps the bombs should have depleted Uranium.

Interesting that at the time of potential German invasion of Britiain,the "Home Guards" were training "Suicide Squads", to try and to repel the possible landing forces.

Laughable, but true.