Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

--->GAUSIE

I just love the way you never tackle anyhting head on and just continually spout loads of generality and the labelling of an entire community as terrorists with no actual consideration as to why all of a sudden, a load of these people just decided to embrace 'terror' as you call it.

I like the way that you also casually dismiss past terror acts...with the throwaway comments that I am labelling Israel as the terrorists.

Do you think the Palestinians would need to resort to the methods they do if they had even a fraction of the F16s, the Abrams tanks and the Apache attack helicopters, that their opponents put out against them, to try and mount some sort of defence of themselves?

But just answer me the one question that I posed to you which addresses the one single issue that Israel is using as justification of its current aggression. I'll excuse you the rest.

Q) During that year long truce, how many times did Hamas fire rockets at Israeli towns in breach of the ceasefire?

I think your misguided statement (and popular soundbite) equating 'Islamic fundamentalism and Palestinian terror and saying it is being exported out to the west' just masks a greater degree of ignorance of the issues at play here than a quick bout of Googling could ever repair.

My real point is not that it is Israel that is the terrorist, although their own previous terror tactics (before they were gifted a modern and well equipped, highly technoilogical army) taught the Palestinians well, but that it is also not simply a case of labelling an entire people with that phrase just because it sounds good and acceptable to us here in the west as some sort of justification of what is going on.

I have then gone on to justify my own point with my 'lovely rhetoric' as you put it rather than just fly off with some emotional one or 2 liner stereotype because I can't be bothered to do any real thinking and research of my own. But if it is all just rhetoric, then it has no substance...so you are welcome to challenge any of it, rather than highlight the spelling mistake of a demonstrator who can't spell the word Jews correctly.

Answer the question now, y'hear?


Regards,

THE COUNT!

COUNT!!

It's a tough question to answer because I'm not aware of when 'that year long truce' was. I dont recall there ever being a year long truce. You may be confusing it with the six month truce during which the rocket and mortar fire dropped to just a few hundred shells?

There are charts showing the number of rockets and mortars landed here. The number fired is obviously slighty more.

If you mean during 2008 then there were a total of 1730 rockets and 1528 mortars - just over double the number fired in 2007. But I don't get the point of the question. Even if it were just half a dozen it would be half a dozen too many. How many rockets would you tolerate landing on your house before you got a bit pissed off and decided to do something about it? Crikey - your neighbour kicks off after just one rusty bent nail on his drive. Your argument is akin to saying 'they're not all that bad - look how few planes they crashed on 911'

Give me any year long date range since hamas came to power and I'll get you the figures. It'll be in the thousands.

G

Count, I think you are wasting your time with Gausie. If he says white is black, just nod and pass him by. To me he has blinkered vision, as many Israelis seem to have. Gausie, seems to have the time span of a few minutes with little consideration for the past or the future.

I think your postings with contained information are apt and reasonable, especially when considered with the trivia produce by the "funny gang".

Count, I think you are wasting your time with Gausie. If he says white is black, just nod and pass him by. To me he has blinkered vision as many Israelis seem to have. They tend to have a time span of a few minutes and little consideration for the past or future.

Fred,

Not only are you being condescending yet again, but I think those remarks are actually racially offensive!

You really do like stirring it, don't you Fred.

Gausie and the Count are good mates who have always held opposing views with a passion.

Fred, just for you

5000 israeli troops have rapidly entered Jordan.
Early reports say she is tired and her arse is sore
but she will soldier on ;-)

Hiliary, LAYOL


I this what the present Israeli government people wish to be remembered by:

18th day under attack: Gaza death toll reaches 940 with 4200 injured
Tuesday January 13, 2009 10:03 by Ghassan Bannoura - IMEMC News & Agencies
The Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza reported that the ongoing Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip has left 18 more Palestinians dead on Tuesday.
Shells fired at Gaza believed to contain White Phosphorus
The Ministry of Health stated that the death toll due to the continued Israeli attack have reached 940, and the number of injured has reached 4,200; among the injured 470 are in critical condition. Of the 940 killed, hospital records demonstrate that 280 children, 98 women and 97 elderly people are among the dead.
Since Monday night until the time of this report, Israeli jetfighters continued to target the Gaza Strip, the attackes targeted homes and residential areas in Gaza City, Jabalyia and the costal line.
On Tuesday at dawn Israeli tanks started to move towards Gaza City, local sources reported. Heavy clashes took place between the Palestinian resistance groups and Israeli ground forces, witnesses said. The Hamas movement announced that its fighters managed to stop the tanks from advancing into Gaza City. Witnesses said clashes are still being heard all around the city.
Dr. Mo'awiah Hassanen, director of the Emergency and Ambulance department in the Ministry of Health in Gaza, announced that half of those injured are children. He added that the doctors are witnessing a new type of injury, due to the use by the Israeli Army in Gaza of new bombs that contains White Phosphorus and Dense Metals
Dr. Hassanen told IMEMC over the phone that doctors are witnessing burns and disfigured bodies of victims, adding that the injured are arriving with a powder on their skin. On Saturday, Human Rights Watch (HRW) urged the Israeli Army to stop using White Phosphorus in its artillery shells against the Gaza Strip. Researchers of HRW said that they observed white-phosphorus use on January 9th and January 10th near Gaza City and Jabalia,.
Using this type of artillery, in this manner is banned by international humanitarian law, the group added. The shells are capable of burning human flesh right down to the bone and are capable of setting structures, fields and other civilian facilities on fire. The group added that using these kind of shells against one of the most densely populated areas in the world causes magnified harm, and called on Israel to stop using these shells.
Israeli online daily, Haaretz, reported that the Israeli Army Spokesperson did not comment on the report. The Israeli Army embarked on its military offensive on Saturday, December 27th, 2008. Israeli warplanes began the military operation by shelling every possible Palestinian security posts in Gaza. In the following days, the air raids were expanded; hospitals, homes, blacksmith workshops, schools, mosques, ambulances, media and UN relief efforts were targeted.
Day and night, the entire Palestinian coastal region has been under attack. On Saturday, January 3rd, 2009, Israeli ground forces entered the Gaza strip and have since divided Gaza into two sections. The Israeli government decided on Sunday night to intensify its operation in Gaza and extend host
---------------------

Look up for yourselves phosphorus burns and the reasons for banning in civilians areas.
It is lucky that it is not your children suffering.

Ruth, as I would expect from you!

There will always be 2 sides to every story and each side will have their own support.

Whilst I have sympathy for the civilian caualties, I can understand how they happen.It is regrettable but if hmas insist on operating from within densely populated areas then they must shoulder some blame. Sadly the value placed on the life of a human being is less in some areas of the worlds than others.Hamas comes out with this rhetoric bulls**t which is lie after lie.
They came to power through fear and violence after major gun battles with Fatah in the Strip.they have no mandate. They care only for their own leadership,stuffing their pockets with ill gotten gains at the expense of their so called "people".
It is my contention that they care not for the damage and suffering they cause as long as they can run away to their properites in Edgware Road when they feel like it.

Israel is not calling for the destruction and annihilation of the Palestinians.The Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalists do call for the destruction of Israel and have done so since 1948.

You go on about the strength of the Israeli army-so what???? Without it where would Israel be today after seeing off the Arab nations in 5 wars?

The truth of the matter is ...well you all know what it is so why bother saying so.

Sivad,

Israel is not calling for the destruction and annihilation of the Palestinians.The Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalists do call for the destruction of Israel and have done so since 1948.


No. Israel has being doing this for years.


What do you expect Hamas or similar groups to do? Paint themselves white, stand in the middle of a deserts with their placards. Give the co-ordinates to the Israelis and suggest that they should either bomb them from 5 miles up in the skies or send in a few nice clean rockets. Perhaps the bombs should have depleted Uranium.

Interesting that at the time of potential German invasion of Britiain,the "Home Guards" were training "Suicide Squads", to try and to repel the possible landing forces.

Laughable, but true.

Ffs.Ive read enoughshameful!most will know which posters stand for humanitynature has an uncanny knack of cleaning up filth!

--->GAUSIE

I was talking off the top of my head wrt the ceasefire. It was indeed a 6 month ceasefire not a year long one.

But I really want to try to lay to rest some of the myths about the rocket fire from Gaza perprtrated by US and Israeli media and by yourself in particular. And I will leave previous history on the whole issue well alone and try to concentrate on the recent past instead, if that pleases you.

How did the recent ceasefire unravel?

The mainstream media in the US and Israel places the blame squarely on Hamas. Indeed, a massive barrage of Palestinian rockets were fired into Israel in November and December, and ending this rocket fire is the stated goal of the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. However, this account leaves out some crucial facts.

Firstly, after the ceasefire began in June 2008, it was remarkably effective. The rate of rocket and mortar fire from Gaza dropped to almost zero, and stayed there for four straight months.So much for the widespread view, as exemplified in the New York Times editorial of 5th Jan that and I quote... "There is little chance of restraining Hamas without dealing with its patrons in Syria and Iran."

Instead, this shows clearly that Hamas can indeed control the violence if it so chooses, and sometimes it does, for long periods of time.

Secondly, and just as importantly, something happened to end this striking period of peace? On November 4th, Israel killed a Palestinian, an event that was followed by a volley of mortars fired from Gaza. Immediately after that, an Israeli air strike killed six more Palestinians. Then a massive barrage of rockets was unleashed, leading to the end of the ceasefire.

Thus the latest ceasefire ended when Israel first killed Palestinians, and Palestinians then fired rockets into Israel. However, we should look a little further to see if this case is atypical, or if it reflects a systematic pattern.

Based on the data from the widely-respected Israeli Human Rights group B'Tselem (including all the data from September 2000 to October 2008), if we analyze the entire timeline of killings of Palestinians by Israelis, and killings of Israelis by Palestinians, in the Second Intifada, the analysis shows that it is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict: 79% of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks (the remaining 13% were interrupted by both sides on the same day). A "conflict pause" was defined as periods of one or more days when no one is killed on either side.

In addition, this pattern... in which Israel is more likely than Palestine to kill first after a conflict pause... becomes more pronounced for longer conflict pauses. Indeed, of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%, and it unilaterally interrupted 100% of the 14 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than 9 days.

A systematic pattern does exist... it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week. These are not my figures and neither are they made up.

The lessons are clear even though you will no doubt choose to ignore them.

First, Hamas can indeed control the rockets, when it is in their interest. The data shows that ceasefires can work, reducing the violence to nearly zero for months at a time.

Second, if Israel wants to reduce rocket fire from Gaza, it should cherish and preserve the peace when it starts to break out, not be the first to kill.

But this doesn't really surprise me because the longer a period of peace breaks out for, the greater the clamour for negotiations to start and this can only mean that ultimately Israel will have to consider giving back land snatched since 1967 on which it is allowing israeli settlers to carry on building to this very day under the protection of the IDF.

I've tried to base all that on an analysis of the figures.

Sorry, it's not quite as black and white as you would make out as to who are the 'goodies' and the 'baddies' in this case. It is as I said, a little more complex than the spelling of 'Jews' as 'Juice', or labelling all Gazans/Palestinians as terrorists and being on the verge of blowing up planes at every opportunity.

I also wish you hadn't made me take up my time doing that post.

Regards,

THE COUNT!

Hilary,
I once played for a rugby team with too many Daies in it.

To make it easier for everybody to know who was been referred to various nicknames were used. Such as:

Big Dai
Little Dai
Dai Rhondda.
Dai Peg Legs
Dai Wing
Dai Fullback

In those days one of course was called Dai Black

As you can guess he


















had Black Hair.

Fred, glad you liked it , your right, its right on my level,;-)

--->RUTH

I think that was the funniest thing I've read on this thread.

Well, it was funnier than Gausie's 'Juice' gag anyway. :-)

Regards,

THE COUNT!

Ruth, It is your own prison cell, or placard. Not mine.

Fred, what are u on about now, ?i bet its a bundle of fun in your house,
Dont you like Jordan?then again, no youde better not answer that one,
maybe best left for the red bloodied men with a pulse amongst us;-)

The Count,;-) knew youde like it;-)

amongst us?

Is there something you're not telling us and which you'd like to own up to, Ruth?

In my naity, Fred, I would've thought that you called him Dai Black because that was his name. What did they used to call you?

Dai skusting