Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

post 2435
So they are NOT Israel's territorial waters, but Gaza's even though controlled by Israel.

Err, you're being even more stupid now Haystack (post 2437).

You are relying far tooo much on what people say rather than the stated facts, try re-reading post 2435. I haven't stated that Gaza does not have TTWs, actually I asked the question; but assuming the Disengagement Plan remains extant, it is immaterial, as you quite correctly state Israel controls those waters.

In any event as per my post 2427, the subject of Gaza TTWs is seemingly irrelevant:

"Activists said Israeli naval commandos stormed the ships after ordering them to stop in international waters, about 80 miles (130 kilometers) from Gaza's coast." Correct?

Internationally recognised TTWs generally extend 12nm, just in case you think 80 miles from the Gaza coast qualifies!

As the old saying goes, you can't educate pork!

of course the waters belong to Israel

haystack has lost his needle again

Sorry for the long post - but this is how the argument runs, apparently, if Gaza is (as Haystack asserts) a sovereign state:

Gaza has attacked, and continues to attack Israel with rockets (any provocation arguments are irrelevant here in law). The attacks give Israel the legal right to engage in acts of war as self-defence. This gives Israel the legal right to blockade Gaza, and to intercept (and sink if necessary) ships in international waters that are planning on breaching the blockade, so long as Israel abides by the general humanitarian rules of blockades.

Article 23 of the fourth Geneva convention requires parties to certain conflicts to permit transit to enemy civilian populations of a limited number of items and under a limited set of conditions (See Geneva Convention IV, Article 23). The law requires passage of food, clothing and medicines intended for children under fifteen, expectant mothers, and maternity cases (See Geneva Convention IV, Article 92). There is no requirement for the passage of electricity, fuel, cement, construction equipment, slingshots, toys or anything else.

Under Article 23 a party can block passage even of food, clothing and medicine and even for these population grounds if it has serious grounds for suspecting that the items will be intercepted before reaching their destination or that the items may benefit the enemy's economy by substitution (Id.). Israel has excellent grounds for fearing both of these results. Hamas gifted Israel these grounds with its seizure of 14 Red Crescent trucks carrying humanitarian aid on 7th February 2008. (Id.)

Article 70 of the First Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1977 creates a slightly broader duty regarding the provision of food, medical supplies, clothing, bedding, means of shelter and "other supplies essential to the survival of the civilian population (Article 70 of Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12th August 1949, and Relating to the Protections of Victims of International Armed Conflicts). Israel, however is not a party to the First Protocol and is therefore not bound by the provisions of Article 70.

More generally, the Israeli Justice Ministry has acknowledged a duty under customary international law not to interfere with the supply of basic humanitarian items such as food and medicine. The Israeli Supreme Court has also enforced this duty in several decisions (eg HCJ 9132/07, Ahmed v Prime Minister 30th Jan 2008).

Hamas' previous diversions of assistance give Israel the legal right to interfere with the passage of humanitarian items, and to supervise their delivery to ensure that they do not reach the wrong hands or benefit the armed efforts or the economy of the enemy.

The blockade together with the rerouting of aid through Ashdod and subsequent land border is Israel's means of exercising the legal rights described above.

any ship can pass once it has been inspected

Gaza is not a sovereign state by any test

come to think of it, where is mahmoud abbas ?

on holiday is he ?

from Arab News

it seems that hamas is the rogue in this mess
but we all knew that anyway


By MOHAMMED MAR'I | ARAB NEWS

Published: Jun 1, 2010 23:13
RAMALLAH: A prominent Palestinian figure on Tuesday said that reconciliation efforts between rival Palestinian movements Hamas and Fatah would resume soon.

Al-Masri added that he was assigned to head the delegation.
He added that he could finish forming the delegation by Tuesday before traveling to the Gaza Strip.

Hamas had seized control of the Gaza Strip by force in June 2007 following two weeks of heavy fighting with Abbas' security forces.

Following Hamas takeover of Gaza, Abbas outlawed the movement and deposed its government, but Hamas rejected his decree and continues to rule the enclave.

Egypt had in October presented a draft reconciliation paper to the rival factions. Fatah accepted the document while Hamas refused to sign, saying it had reservations.

Hamas wanted reconciliation efforts to be handled through a committee representing all the factions and says the Egyptian paper authorized Abbas to form these committees without national understanding. Egypt rejected Hamas demands.

Member of Fatah's central committee Abbas Zaki said Abbas decision to reconcile with Hamas was based on a need to resolve the crisis quickly.

"Why don't we resolve our feuds by ourselves? I believe that all the previous excuses are meaningless and there is nothing that obstructs reaching a real reconciliation," said Zaki.

Meanwhile, Hamas has dismissed the visit as a ploy to persuade them to approve the Egyptian reconciliation draft.

The waters are NOT Israel's. Even Israel calls them Gaza's territorial waters. It is just that Israel controls them and is blockading them.

Still piracy. Still illegal. What will Israel do when the next flotilla arrives?

lol

PTH.
Ref yr post 2418.
I believe the saying is "A man who keeps his mouth closed
might be considered an idiot, but a man who opens his
proves it"

haystack, you are just making it up as you go along

do stop posting rubbish

I have booked a ticket for you on the next boat

don't forget to take your swiss army knife with you

lol

Haystack, you are right 100% of what you posted , but the terrorist and piracy done by israeli army is called legal as they have the full support from USA, when this relation is little bit change everything will change and appear, the time is coming soon.

Statement by HRH Prince El Hassan bin Talal of Jordan on the outrageous raid on the freedom convoy to Gaza

The continuing siege on Gaza, or what has commonly become known as the 'War on Terror', has developed a new dimension since the outrageous and controversial raid on the freedom convoy began. I say controversial because the convoy carrying international citizens and travelling in international waters, left ports of countries with which Israel has diplomatic relations. What this suggests is that perhaps Israel is seeking total isolation to justify continued violence leading to further pre-emptive strikes and a regional war. Regardless of its current motivations, Israel has taught us that in the past when pressured diplomatically, its preferred recourse is the use of arms. That said, would it not have been possible to liaise with these international bodies instead? Even if so-called 'proximity talks' were used to engage them and identify their cargo. I say this knowing full well that they would have been searched by the authorities of those countries from which they departed in keeping with the conditionality of the so-called 'War on Terror'.

If however, Israels main complaint is the continued loss of Israeli lives and not the cargo of the flotilla per se, does the loss of thousands of lives in this war-torn region mean that two wrongs make a right and that wrongful arbitrary behaviour makes a right? Head-strong actions cannot be (and are not) by accident, as we condole the families of the bereaved and cry out for justice and security for the peoples of this region.

The recently convened Washington conference calling for a zone free of weapons of mass destruction was, sadly, not attended by Israel. Fortunately, WMDs have not been a feature of this confrontation. Conventional weapons, however, have been, and they also amount to mass destruction on a multitude of levels as we are currently witnessing, not least of all on the faith that many honest citizens hold that this region has a future based on peace, justice and security.

The unswerving commitment that these peace activists have in the belief that the rights of others be recognised is built with courage and sacrifice over decades, and now it is being destroyed by the force of arms, whether conventional or not. It is not surprising that this region is devoid of an international conference for security and cooperation because it is obvious that there is a lack of belief in the concept of security and cooperation. Rather the focus is on the strong controlling the weak.

Those who believe in human rights and democratic practices have to put their actions where their words are, and this is what these activists have tried so valiantly to do, but for what reward I call for a halt to the suffering and for a commitment by the international leaders and decision makers to peace and justice for the peoples of the region, - a region of such vital importance to the world. I am fully aware of the fact that the Near East, once known as the Cradle of Civilisation, has become a tinder box of war; but in losing sight of peace and humanitarian law, we are surrendering one-by-one to the crushing power of the opportunist 'hatred industry'.


El Hassan bin Talal

Amman, Jordan

31st May 2010

this is the link

http://www.elhassan.org

when hamas stop murdering civilians all will be peaceful

very simple really

Camelot

one of the interesting factors here is that so long as Hamas continue to allow rocket attacks and border incursions they also continue to provide Israel with legal grounds for the blockade, and any other acts of war that Israel choses to wage.

If Hamas were to stop the rockets and incursions then Israel would have no choice but to lift the blockade.

G you lost your mobile phone?

Camelot.

Who murder civilians ?.... it is realy very simple.... who should stop murdering kids, babies, old men and women ...

Sorry for the cut and paste but lets look at it another way.

Facebook Meets the Flotilla
An old high school friend, who's taken great exception to a couple of my most recent Jerusalem Post columns, has been telling me of late on my Facebook page how out of touch with American Jewry I am. He let loose again today. Here's what he had to say:

Hey Danny....yet again a misguided Israeli political and military mission with regard to Gaza that American Jewry will be asked to stand by and support. All over the news Israel will be referred to as "the Jewish State" as worldwide condemnation will pour in. As a Jew I will be on the defensive despite the fact that I have no vote and no say in whatever the politicians in Israel decide. Again, you will no doubt ask for solidarity by Jewish folk worldwide and we will answer for Israeli decision-making. I love Israel as my religious base, but the policies do not reflect my peace loving values. I support Israel with bonds and donations and visits, but the thriving American Jewish experience is independent of it.

OK, there's a lot there, and most of it I won't respond to now. But this is one of those moments when I don't think we have the luxury of writing a column over days, printing it out and editing it, sleeping on it and editing it again. Too much is happening, and people are too hurting and too confused for something not to be said.

To be sure, there's much more that we don't know than we do. We'll learn a lot in the days and weeks to come. But we do know that this was a tragic day and an excruciatingly painful one in Israel. At the fruit market, and at the dry cleaners, I asked people working there how they were, and all I got was a sigh. And then, "Yom kasheh. A tough day. They're going to eat us alive."

They will, indeed, eat us alive. It's taken a full day for the Israeli government to say anything coherent at all, riots are breaking out in Israeli Arab towns, Israelis in Istanbul have been warned by the Foreign Ministry not to leave their hotel rooms, and the international community is raining down condemnation.

But I jump to conclusions very different than those of my high school friend, and I responded to him in language very close to this:

David - we couldn't disagree more strongly. Israel's actions were "misguided"? Let's take that first. Were there tragic outcomes? Obviously. But "misguided"? Gaza is under the malicious and cynical rule of a terror organization sworn on Israel's destruction, that is holding an Israeli soldier captive in contravention of all international treaties, and that oppresses its own population while even Palestinian witnesses there acknowledge that there is no food shortage. Given Hamas' military objectives, Israel would be crazy not to check what's going in. But Israel had already pledged to pass on any humanitarian goods after they were inspected, and told the boats the same thing. So, no, I don't think that the idea of stopping the boats was misguided.

What we know is that on five of the ships, the commandos (among them friends of our kids, by the way) boarded the boats, and there was no resistance and no fighting.

On one boat, however, the first soldiers to land on the boat were attacked with metal rods and knives. There's video of it. It's playing all over Israeli and all over the internet. In some cases, soldiers' weapons were stolen and used against them. One was stabbed, apparently in the abdomen. Another was tossed from a desk and trampled when he landed. There were a handful of commandos there, and 600 "peace activists." On Israeli news tonight, the soldiers on helicopters taking them to the hospital were interviewed. They descended the ropes, they said, planning to talk the "activists" into going to Ashdod. Their weapons were not in their hands, but strapped to their backs. "We went into war," one in his 30's said bitterly tonight, "and all we had were toys." They were beaten, trampled, shot (yes, there were bullet injuries) but only after forty minutes of combat did they resort to live five. They were going to get lynched if they didn't fight back, they said.

Was I there? No. Do I know what really happened? No. But do I trust these kids and their officers? Yes, I do.

As for "peace activists," David, how much do you know about the IHH? It's a terror support group, supported by Turkey (among others) and it was ent to provoke. If they just wanted the goods to get to Gaza, they could have agreed to transfer them to an Israeli ship, or to unload them in Ashdod, as the Navy personnel asked them to. But they didn't want that. They just wanted to break the blockade. Why? For food? Even a few Palestinian journalists with some guts are reporting that there's no humanitarian food crisis in Gaza. No, it wasn't about food. They want the blockade broken so that after that, non-humanitarian items (read weapons) could brought in. Why should Israel allow that? So that they can be better armed the next time we have to send our kids into Gaza?

As for "being on the defensive," you "will be on the defensive" only because you totally don't get it. For if you did get it, you wouldn't feel that way. There's only one country anywhere on the planet about which there's a conversation about whether it has a right to exist. Do you ever think about why that is? What, the fate of the Palestinians is worse than that of aborigines in Australia? Or people in the Congo, or Rwanda? Why all the attention on Israel? Do you really not get it? You think that New Zealand just coincidentally decided this week to make kosher slaughtering illegal? You think it's really about humanitarian commitments? Come on.

No, David, you really don't have to defend Israel. No one's asking you to. We know that it's too late to expect many Americans like you to assume we're right before you assume we're wrong. As we look out at Jews across the world, we're just assessing who gets Jewish history, and who's so thoroughly intellectually assimilated that they're actually embarrassed that that Jews don't have to continue to be victims. I'm horrified by what happened on the ship, and I'll be shocked if after all is in, we find that Israel made no mistakes. (This was pretty clearly an intelligence failure, at the very minimum, sending those soldiers into something for which they had not at all been prepared or armed.) But if that had been my kid on the ship, and he'd gone in to prevent the blockade from being broken, but had no intention of fighting, and had then been attacked, I'd want him to defend himself. No matter what. I'd want him to come home whole, because that's part of the new Jewish reality that this country is supposed to make possible.

The loss of life is tragic. So are the injuries to soldiers, including serious head wounds. But most tragic of all is that the world is so willing to be blinded to what's really going on here.

At the end of this excruciating day in Israel, at least given what I know at this moment, I'm saddened but not apologetic. I'm not surprised by most of the world's reactions. But I haven't lost sight of who provoked this, and why they did that. But you're a very smart guy. Why have you?

Camelot,

Take a risk and go to the two sites I posted earlier and compare the similarities..

At the moment Israel is an embarrassment to itself and America, and America is losing more and more of its credibility as in bends to internal party political pressures.

The does not mean I support many of the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah or Fatah. But I do understand some of the reasons for their "terrorism".

But the many of the past and recent actions of Israel have been against international law and humanitarian standards.

Israel, will not succeed in suppressing the Palestinians by force and will have to hope that by negotiation an acceptable settlement can be reached.





http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&rlz=1B3WZPB_enGB336GB336&q=polish+ghetto+photos&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=3WgFTJ2PFtGT4gbd2_DLDg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQsAQwAA

Make allowances for below, as it is journalistic and has propaganda influence.

But the photos are graphic and the majority are not set ups etc..


http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/gaza-horror-large-photo-gallery-of-gaza-massacre-by-israel/