Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

camerons had the promise of a posting in Brussels after he gets kicked
out by disgruntled, deceived 'honest' Tory's.

'daves' knee's in his trouser's are begining to show excessive wear...

I thought it was his brown nose....

That as well ;D

Both sides are telling lies.

But here's one fact:

It would be worth staying in if we could influence the EU's agendas, laws and rules.

But we can't because it is not a democratic institution.

Accordingly, because we can't ever democratically influence what is going on, what on earth is the point in staying in the EU as members?

A. None. There is no point. And because the membership fees are astronomic, by coming out we would save an awful lot of money. We could then spend our savings on some of the things the EU is financing, such as Grants for the British farming community, being just one example.

With totally uncontrolled EU immigration because of the EU's unswerving policies on freedom of movement and freedom of work and with EU immigrants consequently coming into the UK at the rate of say, enough to populate a city the size of Oxford, every year, then the only thing we can do about that particular problem, is to cease signing up to the stupidity of it and cancel our EU Membership.

One of the lies that the leave campaign keeps spouting is that we can have a free trade agreement with the EU without free movement of people. They have no way of knowing that. The EU has already said that will not be possible. No other country has that. If we have to accept free movement of people then leaving will have gained us nothing regarding immigration which is the leave group's only card to play. The leave group keeps harping on about EU laws affecting us. How many laws affect any of us on a day to day basis?

Stop it Haystack, you are making a fool of yourself.

Please tell us us how the USA, Asia, the rest of the world manage to trade with the €U without being a member and without signing up to their stupid laws?

And don't start talking about tariffs, that's a two way street everybody gets to play.

They trade under WTO rules with tariffs and import duties. They don't have a free trade agreement. With tariffs our goods would be more expensive in the EU and imported goods from the EU would cost us more.

Yes, both sides can play and they would do exactly that. The change would be a significant cost to us in lower exports and more expensive imports. The free trade aspect of the Common Market was the reason why we joined. Losing that would be a serious financial shock to our economy.

I have to admit I think Hays is talking sense over changes to EU laws and regulations.

(To agree with him worries me.)

However, I do wonder what his satisfaction will be in voting to try to exit from the EU. It seems masochistic to me.


A large % of laws and regulation seem me, to relate to standards of import/exports and protective and will not be changed in favour, or against the UK.


They are of mutual gain to all EC members.

Again, how many EU laws and regulations would the rabble of exiters in practice wish to change.

Although, I am sure that some would argue a case for slavery to be reintroduced.

-=-=-=-=

Grannyboy,

I am not sure why your postings remind me of being shouted at when I was a little boy by the school bully.

But, I think you have made me more in favour of voting to remain in the EU.

fred you still are a little boy, going by some of your post.

Haystacks thinks just because little countries like Norway and the Swiss
have to accept free movement it does not mean we will have to accept
the free movement scam.

Yes it was the FREE TRADE aspect as in COMMON MARKET that made ALL the difference in us
joining.

We are a small country compared to the EU. The point is that the leave campaign jut discount the problem and say we won't have to allow free movement. This one of their main lies as they don't really have any idea of the real answer.

There have been a few complaints about these instruction on how to fill in the postal voting form!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36411509

Directive 2006/112 of the EU requires Member States to have a minimum standard rate of VAT of 15%. I guess we have to set it at 20% so as to fund our massive EU membership fees?

If we were not in the EU then we could set our own Standard VAT rates and also go below a Standard Rate of 15%.

If we set the Standard VAT rate at 8% instead of 20%, then something costing £120 whilst we are in the EU would then cost £108 if we are out of it. This is 10% lower.

We won't reduce VAT because it constitutes a large proportion of UK taxation. We would need that money and any money paid to the EU to help pay for the financial crisis that would follow exit.

I will vote out, but I am concerned about the effects on the EU of our exit. There is a good chance that it will cause a recession in the EU and the UK.

The instruction is a bit suggestive, there was no need for it.


VAT is just one of the taxes that could be modified/disgarded if we were not in the €U.

The list of things that could be accomplished if we made our own decisions are endless.

ie: We wouldn't have to ask the €U if we can please save our steel industry (climate change bullshit) We could just go ahead and do it.

haystacks, The comments that you post point to only one way that you are
voting, and that's to remain..

You're are the mirror image of the SNAKE OIL SALESMAN, cameron..He stated before the start of the 'reform' negotiations that if he didn't get the 'reforms' he wanted he wouldn't hesitate to recommend LEAVING!!!

He didn't get the 'reforms' he said he wanted but he's pathologiacly committed
to staying..

Just like him, your saying the opposite in the hope you can influence some
weak undecided with your underhand slimy posts.

I think he did get the reforms he wanted. He was never going to get much as the EU is pretty intransigent.

I want out because I regard the EU as ultimately doomed. I also do not want a federal United States of Europe. To control the members of the EU, create stability for the Euro and prevent crises like Greece defaulting, there has to be Fiscal control. That will involve central setting of budgets, central control of tax rates, Federal taxes. It will lead to very little for the governments of individual countries to do. It is an unstoppable train. The countries in the EU are far too different to be centrally governed and the problem will only get worse. The northern European countries have a very different work ethic from the south. Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal all prefer the sun to work.

I want out but I am realistic enough to think we will stay in. The things that Cameron did get will stop us being sucked further into the Federal experiment, but what will happen next time Labour are in power. I fear that they will give away those safeguards as they did our veto under Blair. Labour do want a Federal EU hoping it may become a socialist superstate.

Britain will be forced to join an EU ARMY unless we leave, says Armed Forces Minister

THE Minister in charge of Britain's military has become the first member of the Government to confirm that if the UK remains under Brussels control it will be forced to join an EU army.



By David Maddox

PUBLISHED: 00:01, Sun, May 29, 2016 | UPDATED: 08:54, Sun, May 29, 2016





Armed Forces Minister Penny Mordaunt made the warning following revelations in the Daily Express that the Lisbon Treaty obliges Britain to join the EU Army.

It also follows further shocking revelations that a plan to create it will be tabled the day after the Britain's EU referendum in a bid to keep the nightmare scenario hidden from British.

A policy paper drawn up by the European Union's foreign policy chief suggests the organisation could "step up" its contribution to security defence.


According to reports from Brussels the plans being prepared by Federica Mogherini are being kept secret until after the UK's referendum on EU membership on June 23.



The paper urges the EU to create defence structures using mechanisms set out in the 2009 Lisbon treaty.

The draft said: "The EU can step up its contribution to Europe's security and defence.

"Our external action must become more joined up across policy areas, institutions and member states. Greater unity of purpose is needed across the policy areas making up our external action."



More: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/673463/Britain-forced-EU-ARMY-leave-Armed-Forces-Minister

Haystack ,after reading your postings i have to say why don't you just admit to wanting to Remain (it's not a crime) ,your postings remind me of some of the low grade rampings on ADVFN . You won't influence a single person on here and what's more there are only a few of us arguing about this anyway.
Very strange for someone who says they want out.

The FT poll of polls on 25 May has Remain on 46% and Leave on 41%. However, still early days, and too soon to call the final outcome.
Within the next 10 days or so the anti migrant bounce needs to show a 6 point Leave lead, especially after the furious attack on Cameron, if migration is to be the seen as the primary concern of the voters.

Expect a focus on the economy in the last 10 days.

A possible model for trade after Brexit could be Anglo Irish trade. Here free trade works well but there is also free movement. The Irish in the UK have a vote in our general elections and now even the EU vote. Historical Irish migrants have been seen as economically beneficial and have been well integrated into UK society.
However I doubt other EU countries will be happy if a similar trade agreement can be set up solely with Germany and France. In fact Germany has already said any trade agreement they negotiate with the UK will be via the EU..
The Tory side of Brexit have under estimated the disadvantage those that try to disrupt the status quo have.
They need to clearly set out their way of ensuring we have access to the European markets. And it needs to be better than the one we have.
The fact they can't .....says it all.

Who signed the Lisbon Treaty? Labour did. The Conservatives opposed it and was planning to offer a referendum but Labour had already given away our veto so a referendum was out of the question.

The Lisbon treaty was the descendant of the Maastricht Treaty. Ireland voted against it, France was about to vote against it. Labour offered us a vote on the Treaty but avoided it because the treaty was cancelled. The Treaty was redrawn as the Lisbon Treaty and was virtually the same word for word. In the meantime Ireland voted again saying yes this time. Labour reneged on the promised vote by saying it was not the Treaty that they offered the vote on (despite it being the same wording). The UK signed the Treaty and Labour gave away our veto on new laws at the same time.

That is why we are in this mess now and we have to accept EU rules. Given another chance Labour will give away more of our sovereignty.