Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

More crazy muslims at play

Clashes between Somali government forces and Islamist militants have
killed at least 17 people and wounded about 60 in the capital Mogadishu.

Backed by African Union troops, it is trying to quash al-Shabab - an al-Qaeda-inspired group that control much of southern Somalia.

Complete guff Fred about your own objectivity. Your bias has been clear from the start of this thread. Next you will be claiming you are objective when it comes to discussing UK politics next as well.

Perhaps if you unsquelched G you might see that in recent days he has been one of the few to post real information as opposed to opinion and to try to get a logical debate going. If you are interested in objective debate you would be better off squelching an Israel bashing nutcase like Clubman instead.

and as i said yesterday, for a truly balanced and objective view, read yesterday's Thunderer

I've been trying to pick my way through the rhetoric to try and understand what this is really all about - and have come to some conclusions that might help to chart a course for an understanding of the blockade question and where a resolution might lie.

The key differences start with:

1) Most of the world claims that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza
2) Israel claims there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza

How can both of these statements be true? Only with a definitional difference over 'humanitarian crisis'.

Israel seems to be basing its claim on the observed and frequently reported fact that there are no shortages of food, medicine, medical equipment and clothing in Gaza.

Informed commentators who claim there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza point to the severe shortage of building materials and manufacturing raw materials that mean that Gaza does not have the ability to build/rebuild homes, businesses or infrastructure such as hospitals, police stations etc. This, to me, is a crisis.

In pubs, clubs and BBs, there's also a bunch of people who hear the world claim humanitarian crisis and assume it means Gaza is short of food, medical supplies etc. I believe the reason that this view is so widespread is that it suits the agenda of some to encourage the misunderstanding as a subtle form of propganda.

Hamas' refusal to accept the aid unless all items are included seems to reinforce the definitional difference - they're clearly not in dire need of the food and medicine - but the construction materials are the big prize.

Israel's unwillingness to allow building materials in is understandable from a security perspective but unacceptable when looked at from a humanitarian perspective. Taking the two perspectives together, I sympathise and agree with their decision - but I recognise that's just my opinion and so is irrelevant.

So this boils down to:

o no real dispute over food aid
o no real dispute over medical aid
o no real dispute over clothing aid

o Major dispute over rebuilding aid

My guess is that Israel have no genuine objection to homes and infrastructure being rebuilt - their objection stems from their fear that building materials will be used to construct military installations and equipment.

If that's the case then the dispute is not really over the reconstruction aid at all - it's over the application of that aid.

There are a few crazies who will argue that Gaza should receive no aid at all, and a few other crazies who will argue that Gaza should be free to build whatever military infrastructure it chooses. But I think these opinions are the extremes of a bell curve of opinions, with most rational people believing that Gaza should be free to conduct civilian reconstruction, but is not yet sufficiently responsible to be permitted to strengthen its military.

There's a bunch of assumptions I've made in here that may be wide of the mark - they are my personal assumptions so they'll be tainted by my personal beliefs. But if they're true or even close to true then they lead to a possible framework for a solution. Not to the middle east problem, but to this particular crisis.

The problem boils down to this: The world, if interested in solving the problem, needs to think about how it can supervise and audit the use of reconstruction materials within Gaza to demonstrate to Israel's satisfaction that they are being used for peaceful means.

This ought not be too difficult - every well run construction company in the world does the same thing (with varying success) on a minor scale. They have to ensure that the materials they buy are applied to the projects they run, rather than for a foreman's home loft extension or new roof.

With a transparent and reliable system of checks in place, I can't see any further objection from Israel to Gaza receiving building aid. There will still need to be internationally policed import restrictions on weapons and rockets - and so an international 'Customs & Excise' force stationed in Gaza port might achieve such, and either Israel or a trusted third party would probably need to patrol the coast of Gaza to ensure all incoming ships docked and unloaded at the port rather than smuggled rockets or contraband onto the beaches, but I think there's the basis of something workable in here.

G

"So this boils down to:

o no real dispute over food aid
o no real dispute over medical aid
o no real dispute over clothing aid"

I think that there is considerable dispute over the above. How can the UN and Red Cross be reporting that only a quarter of previous levels of supplies are reaching Gaza. I suspect that it suits Israel to believe that Gaza has sufficuent food, medical supplies. Plenty of independent observers are reporting extreme poverty in Gaza. The Blockade must be lifted. The pressure will increase until it is lifted.

Isaacs,

UK politics. Go back to see my postings in 2009 about when the election would be and the probable outcome of the election etc. Compared with your opinions, I think mine were reasonably accurate. I think, I suggested then that it would be an election which labour might like to lose.


I await future developments of the coalition with interest. Still looking for the "strong" government and wonder how Cameron is going to introduce necessary policies and keep the tory right, out of touch MPs on board.

Perhaps, Cameron is really a liberal at "heart".

My political leanings are to the left of centre and over the years recent governments of all colours have move to be more socially conscious and responsible and inclusive. ( I suspect that the present government will ignore the right wing of the tory party. CGT will be the first hurdle, as will be hereditary tax and other tax reforms.)


As far as G is concerned, I have no wish to read his uncouth, abusive, loutish, threatening postings. I did not find him amusing and thought his main intention was to be denigrating and suppress opinions. which did not concur
with his own.

He seemed to be using the same methods of discussion or approaches to obtain his objectives, as were used by the fascist thugs in Germany during the thirties.

MM, again I thought more interested in denigration and suppression of opinion and discussion of Israel's action. I also thought him to be patronising.

I agree with your opinion of some of Clubman's postings and do not see them as gainful and suggest that he steps back and reconsiders some of his views.
But I don't know enough about him to make any overall judgement of him.

As far as Hay's postings on this thread are concerned, i agree with the sentiments and the validity of the contents. Although, I disagree with some contents.

Isaacs,

Again, thank you for your opinions of me.

As far you are concerned, I find many of you postings are often in a similar vein as G/MM.

My opinions about the Middle East conflicts, for various reasons, may be different to yours, that is understandable, but I think, in general, that I agree with the majority of world opinion, especially the opinions of the various humanitarian groups.

Ps.

When I started this thread, I posted 4 questions, which I was asking myself and thought it would be of interest to include others.

I had some made some conclusions for myself, but was interested to read those of other people.

Also, at the time I thought the Palestinians weren't be given a fair and balanced coverage by the media.

(I wont give opinion of G/MM. I will allow you to consider their postings for yourself.)

As Fred has - allegedly - squelched both Gausie and myself, I fail to see how he would be in a position to 'give opinion of G/MM' anyway.

Or perhaps he hasn't squelched either of us but simple affects to have done so.

Gausie: As far as G is concerned, I have no wish to read his uncouth, abusive, loutish, threatening postings. I did not find him amusing and thought his main intention was to be denigrating and suppress opinions. which did not concur
with his own. I think that's Fred's way of saying that he finds you a little, um, direct.

MM, again I thought more interested in denigration and suppression of opinion and discussion of Israel's action. I also thought him to be patronising. Patronising? Moi? That must be one of Fred's more patronising statements, which is saying something.

This thread really is the gift that keeps on giving.

Its up to hamas whether the blockade continues or not

they just have to stop killing/bombing and rejoin the human race and mahmoud abbas

and its up to others to stop their money flow

All this thread needs now is Mr Ashley James.

:o)

They are just playing games
This follows mahmoud abbas initiative to send a delegation to gaza

Its just one big joke

Friday June 04, 2010 11:42author by Saed Bannoura
The Hamas movement invited Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, of the rival Fateh party, to visit the Gaza Strip as the first step to break the Israeli siege, and end internal divisions between the two movements.

didn't you guys ever learn precis at school? ..... a course in balanced and objective discourse would not have gone amiss either

Gausie,
Do you know why Hamas' refusal to accept the aid unless all items are included, they put on Aljazeera news, that the battery of the Electric wheel chair for handicapped people are removed so no one can use it, do you want Hamas to accept it, if they do a huge Israel propaganda shows that Israel gave the whole shipment to Gaza.
Whenever Haystack, Fred1new and me posts anything, the other group (Israel supporter) uses islam, uses Idiot words, or they posts Iran, Alqaeda or other part than Palestine and Israel problem just to change the situation as a strategy to change the subject, even in their harts they know we are posting the truth.

Haystack, I would like to tell you that you are an encyclopaedia, and I admire you for the large information I had gained from you. So thank you.

Fred as I mentioned before you can criticise me for what ever you want and I accept your criticism, but please do not put my name with the one you mentioned.

Hil: Luckily I think Ashley has been thrice banned, the last time I think a wooden stake was used, too. So far we've managed to keep phases of the moon out of this, if not yet the loonies.

Aawww shucks, DelBoy. And I was going to hold the door for Gausie too.

Hard to know where to begin unpicking your lengthy post above Fred (why write 5 lines when you can write 50.) It goes off at a tangent from my original point and is full of supposition and inaccurracies. I think I will just give it a miss as most on here understand you well enough by now.

Fahel,

Apologies, but one of you postings (P2531, cut and paste) was I thought, inflammatory, and would do little to reduce tension. (If it can be investigated and substantiated in a legitimate "court of law", at some time in the future, it should be.)

Don't fall into the trap of responding in the manner chosen by some on the thread. Their methods don't succeed in the end..

Have a good day.

Isaacs,

When you make sweeping statements about me, and I consider them to be false, you can expect a response from me.

I consider my response more temperate than you merit.

Have a nice day.

Response yes, off at a tangent, essay length, fairly tale no.