Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Cynic - of course you can become Jewish if you take being a follower of Judaism as sufficient to be Jewish. You can convert to Judaism just as you can convert to most, if not all, other religions and it happens all the time. OK so you may not be able to trace your bloodline back to Abraham and Isaac but it doesn't mean you are not Jewish.

Sammy Davis Jr? Biblical Ruth? Everyone from Khazar? I probably know a dozen or so less celebrated.

My wife is named after Ruth the Moabite. However, in her case, she has had to convert to being Scottish. :-)

Gausie

"a legally constituted and democratic country (regardless of how it came to be) has every right to exist in peace "

That's a very interesting set of ideas. democracy has nothing to do with it. Plenty of non democratic countries have a right to exist.

That leaves 'legally constituted' and 'regardless of how it came to be.

Legally constituted is not really relevant as that is an internal matter regarding its own constitution and laws. One would expect it to be legally constituted.

That leaves us with 'regardless of how it came to be'. That is the point. It came to be illegally and and has never had its legality established. The land is Palestinian and does not belong to an occupying set of people who style themselves as Israel. Virtually all that land that is often termed Israel was part of the Ottoman empire. Turkey being the successor to the Ottoman Empire gave ownership of the land to Palestine at around about 2005 I think, just to emphasise the point. Of course the Palestinians want their land back. Hamas will never stop their attempts to regain their territory. It is going to be like this for all of our lifetimes at least, althouhg it is likely that it will get worse.

That, of course, leaves us with 'has every right to exist in peace'. That's is in dispute, especially the 'exist' bit. 'exist in pece', maybe if Israel stops settlling illegally held land and withraws back to previously held positions. At that stage, Israel might be able to come to an accomodation with the Palestinians. If not, then there is no chance of peace.

The US is wooing Palestine with grants. Some of these have been announced over the last few days. The PA will probably just take the lot even though the money is earmarked for Gaza. The PA are playing up to Obama and wants to be seen as being the good guys. This is just a temporary phase as Hamas have no intention of being conned into becoming another Fatah.

The West Bank at some point will see the pointlessness of appeasement. When that happens you can expect to see Hamas take a more dominant role on the West Bank. That is certainly their ambition. It is the main reason that Hamas has been trying to stop the rocket attacks recently.

isaccs - you can convert to judaism, but that does not make you a jew

c, Why not? Can you explain please?

I beg to disagree Cynic. I presume you would say new converts become Judaist or some other such word rather than Jewish. I guess you prefer a much narrower definition which perhaps you might share.

I think what Cynic is trying to say is that Judaism is the religion of the Jews whose people are considered to have near-Eastern ethnicity. So anybody whose forefathers didn't originate from those lands, wouldn't technically be a Jew.

hilary - effectively so .... in fact, and i promise i won't go into long discourse or even discussion, unless i am much mistaken (far from impossible), the orthodox powers that be, do not allow converts to marry in an an orthodox syngague ..... and the other side is that our family on both sides is jewish for as many generations that we can trace (not many in poland!), and though i am definitely a non-practicing "judaist", i am nonetheless still and de facto jewish

Cynic - that's bollocks. Orthodox converts are treated in exactly the same way as all other orthodox jews.

clearly "far from impossible" was true then! ..... anyway, in my view, most of most religions are a load of mumbo jumbo, though the basic tenets may well make good and sound philosophy for life ..... pretty much rubbish = kosher/halal rules which were basic health rules and very sensible at the time; carrying jewishness through the mother's line was eminently sensible tribal law - one generally knows who the mother is, if not the father

Cynic - so you are basically saying being Jewish is defined ethnically by being able trace ancestors back to certain groups. While true for most people who would call themselves Jewish I still argue that it is not necessary for someone to be Jewish. It is a matter of common use of language. If it looks like duck, walks like a duck and swims like duck it is a duck. Somebody who follows Judaism, go to synagogue, follows the Sabbath, etc. is in their own eyes and the eyes of almost everybody else Jewish. I would like to know what else you would call them. They may not be ethically Jewish if you want to use such a term but they are still Jewish.

PS I have to agree on the religions being mumbo jumbo point.

My understanding of it, fwiw, is that being Jewish refers to ethnicity (in this case, from the near-East), whereas Judaism refers to a religion.

Obviously the definitions of ethnicity and religion are completely different, so Cynic is right in his interpretation. In the same way, you get Latin-Americans who are Catholics, but being a Catholic obviously doesn't make you a Latin-American.

The fly in the ointment seems to come in the form of a relatively new word called ethno-religious which suggests that being one (eg a Judaist) automatically implies being the other (a Jew). I think that Sikhism is another example of an ethno-religious group. In that case, Isaacs and Gausie are also correct.

I'll get off the fence now.

:o)

Isaacs,

Followers of the Rabbi?

================

Often, when I was trying to be serious and was trying to construct some thoughts in writing, I used to refer to all the dictionaries that I had available; in order to try to make sure that the words that I was going to used, would be understood in the way that I intended.

When I started of the thread, I was bemused by the various understanding of meanings of the following words Culture, Race, Nation, Nationality, Patriotism, Patriotic, Ethnic, Ethnicity, Religion, Jewish, Zionist, etc.

I struggled with that, and then consider for a little, the effect which the various genetic mapping information would have on some of the underlying meanings and emotions of the commonly used words.

Possibly, some of the confusion in the Middle East, is due to the wandering and variable meanings of the words being used.

In reference to what has been posted recently on this thread, but I have not included all the meanings implied by the use of the various words;

Excerpted from Oxford Talking Dictionary
Copyright 1998 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.


Judaism

1 The profession or practice of the Jewish religion; the religion of the Jews, with a belief in one God and a basis in Mosaic and rabbinical teachings.
2 Adoption of Jewish practices on the part of Christians; a practice or cast of thought associated with Jews.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jewish

Of, belonging to, or characteristic of, the Jews; of or relating to Judaism; Israelitish, Hebrew. M16.

---------------------------------------------------------
Jew

1. a son of the Hebrew patriarch Jacob, the tribe descended from Judah.] 1
2. A person of Hebrew descent; a person whose religion is Judaism; Hist. an Israelite. ME.

---------------------------------------------------------

Zionism /

A movement for (orig.) the reestablishment of a Jewish nation in Palestine, and (since 1948) the development of the State of Israel

---------------------------------------------------------

Patriotic

1 Of or belonging to one's country.
2 Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a patriot; devoted to the well-being or interests of one's country.

====

I leave race, culture etc, to others.




PS.

I, also, looked up the meaning of Welsh and became more confused by my ancestors, and realised I am just a Welshman, when Wales are playing England at Rugby.

The question of what determines Jewish identity in the State of Israel was given new impetus when, in the 1950s, David Ben-Gurion requested opinions on mihu Yehudi ("who is a Jew") from Jewish religious authorities and intellectuals worldwide in order to settle citizenship questions. This is still not settled, and occasionally resurfaces in Israeli politics .


In other words , if they still cant figure it out after 50 years , this could be a long thread :)))

hilary - i totally agree with you ..... let the talmudic scholars continue to argue their really unimportant arcane issues in their cloistered yeshivot (i guess they can just about tolerate a word associated with catholic monasteries!) instead of getting on with life in the real world .... little different from the medieval philosophers arguing about angels on the point of a needle etc

But why are they in Israel now?

because if they had turned right instead of left, they would have been swimming in oil in saudi!

Ovey, that Moses. :-)