Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Morning campers, stand by your beds. Lots to get through today.
The Beast of Bolsover, Dennis Skinner, has come out on the side of Brexit. You wouldn't expect a man that fended of the SNP hordes from the seat he has polished for 45 years in the Commons to listen to a whelp like Corbyn.
I decided to take a peak at the ITV debate last night but changed channel after a few minutes. My doctor tells me to stay calm before going to bed. I think it was an audition for some obscure reality show. On behalf of the remainiacs there was Wee Willy Sturgeon; a Mo Mowlam lookalike, with a voice that needed a large dose of WD40, giving a broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party; and I swear even Dustin Hoffman in his best Tootsie drag. After spotting a lonely Jack Nicklaus in a dark suit on the leave side of the podium I decided I'd had enough. He had no chance. No wonder Muirfield won't accept women members.

The following article is from Littlejohn in today's Mail. I like the expression "learned helplessness". So true. It sums up the EU as a whole and our inability to control immigration and the NHS. As for Oscar Wilde's definition of our Cynic, I will leave you to judge.. :)

Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has defected from the Vote Leave camp, accusing the Brexiteers of making false claims about the NHS. She says the health service would be worse off if we get out of the EU.
Dr Wollaston, who chairs the Commons Health Select Committee, said it was untrue to claim that withdrawal would free up £350 million a week to spend on the NHS.
Maybe she’s right. Who knows? The numbers being bandied about by both sides are baffling. I’m not going to get into the financial squabbles for and against, since most of the figures seem to be plucked out of thin air.
You can’t put a monetary value on liberty and national sovereignty. Anyone trying to pin a price tag on our right to make our own laws and control our own destiny is to confirm Oscar Wilde’s enduring definition of a cynic — someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Perhaps if Dr Wollaston had paused to read yesterday’s damning report on the Queen Alexandra Hospital in Portsmouth, she may not have been quite so eager to join Remain.
When inspectors from the Care Quality Commission made an unannounced visit to the hospital, they found the Accident and Emergency department so busy that 16 ambulances were queueing outside.
They also discovered some people with life-threatening injuries being forced to wait in something called a ‘Jumbulance’ — a king-sized vehicle designed to accommodate up to four patients at a time. The inspectors noted ‘regular, significant and substantial overcrowding’ inside the building, with patients being warehoused in corridors.
Because of the log-jam at A&E, the ambulances were unable to respond to other emergency calls.
No doubt there are those who will blame the ‘savage cuts’ for the dire state of affairs at the hospital, even though the Government is spending record sums on the NHS and has ring-fenced the health care budget.
What is indisputable is that the pressures on the health service have been greatly exacerbated by mass immigration — something we are powerless to control while we remain in the European Union.
Portsmouth is a case in point. Already the most densely inhabited city outside London, its population has undergone a dramatic rise over the past five years. In 2011, at the time of the last census, the number of people in Portsmouth stood at 205,000.
This year it is forecast to reach just shy of 270,000. An increase of more than 30 per cent in half a decade has put severe strain on public services, not just health but education and transport, too.
Most of the influx has been from Eastern Europe, as illustrated by the 10,000 people pictured queueing up in Portsmouth to vote in the Romanian elections 18 months ago.
Nobody can say accurately how many more have arrived since. Against this backdrop, it is worth reminding ourselves that the Labour government told us just 13,000 would be arriving in Britain from the whole of Eastern Europe after restrictions were lifted in 2004.
So why should we believe any official prediction about anything, especially the ‘benefits’ of EU membership?
There was another aspect of the Care Quality Commissioners’ report into the Queen Alexandra hospital which struck me. Staff recognised that standards were unacceptable but were stranded in a culture of something called ‘learned helplessness’.
Eh?
Apparently that’s a psychiatric term for a condition which afflicts people who have experienced persistent failure and are now suffering from a sense of powerlessness.
They believe that no matter how bad their situation, there is nothing they can do to improve things.
That would pretty much seem to sum up the predicament of those working not just at the Queen Alexandra, but throughout the NHS and the rest of our ‘world class’ public services. Even when they try to do their best, they are impeded by a system crippled by bureaucracy, incompetence and indifference.
So they become institutionalised and accept that not only can they do nothing to change their situation but there’s no escape either.
A sort of Stockholm Syndrome sets in and, like hostages and kidnap victims, they find it easiest to take the path of least resistance.
Unable to address the root cause of the problem — in this case the overwhelming number of people arriving at the hospital — they resort to sticking plaster solutions. Hence, the Jumbulance.
Come to think of it, sometimes it seems as if half the country is suffering from Learned Helplessness syndrome — especially when it comes to the EU referendum. Even most of the Remain crowd admit the EU is a mess. But they seem to accept that we just have to live with it.
As for experiencing persistent failure and powerlessness, doesn’t that describe perfectly all attempts to reform the EU in Britain’s favour?
Call Me Dave’s pathetic ‘renegotiation’ is a classic example of a man afflicted with Learned Helplessness. He knew our so-called ‘partners’ weren’t going to budge an inch, so he modified his ‘demands’ to three parts of Sweet Fanny Adams. Not so much helpless as hopeless.
Even when he was thoroughly humiliated and forced to return empty handed with his tail between his legs, he still tried to make the best of a bad job. He knows that the EU is corrupt, anti-democratic and sclerotic but lacks the courage to break free.
Faced with EU incompetence and intransigence, most of our professional political class is suffering from Learned Helplessness.
They have accepted that some things just don’t change, so we might as well go along with it.
In the NHS, staff hesitate to rock the boat because of the impact it could have on their careers, so they settle for the quiet life option. Much the same could be said of the political class, who have a similar vested interest in the status quo.
Dr Sarah Wollaston, whatever flimsy reason she gives for jumping ship, is just the latest politician to calculate that it’s best to cling to nurse for fear of something worse.
She knows full well that the real pressure on the NHS is not money but the ever-increasing number of people wanting to use it, largely because of our inability to control immigration while we remain in the EU.
Fortunately, we’re not all suffering from Learned Helplessness syndrome. We’re not powerless. We can do something about it on June 23.

Vote Leave!

The scottish loud mouthed, ill-educated one should add a few votes to our cause

Vote Brexit - and put her on screen every night

ever had a morgage / loan how relentless the payments are, keep you poor, the
150 per day uk pays nett. the same effect, you can now get rid of this burden,
vote leave BB

We couldn't have a picture-story cartoon again please like at the last election ?.....like Milliband/Sturgeon..

Talked to a young chap yesterday asked him about Brexit and he said voting out and that 9 out of 10 of his friends voting out , decent lad about 24 ish . I was surprised as I thought the young were supposed to want in .

What planks done that again , Oh yes it's Freda .

Months or years?

.

Something to cheer you up Haystack and will.



EU Referendum: Massive swing to Brexit – with just 13 days to go


Exclusive: polling carried out for ‘The Independent’ shows that 55 per cent of UK voters intend to vote for Britain to leave the EU in the 23 June referendum



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

Well, today you may have seen what the market think about that decision.

you're such a clever chap, or at least your superciliousness implies that you think you are, that i'm truly amazed that you did not see market weakness coming before the referendum whatever the result was likely to be

seems you really are a klutz as most of us here had guessed anyway

Perhaps, I am already out of the market.

But it is not what I think of Brexit but the "big" boys think.

As you said you are an exiter, which to me in the present circumstances operating cynically out of self-interest.

Good luck, you may need it!

voting tactically may be
out of self interest? ..... much more questionable, but then you deride (and despise) any who do not fall into line with you

No the only ones with self interest are those who want to remain on
the EU gravy train.

As to what the market thinks..The big boys make money on ups and
downs in the market, ie shorts or longs, some like volatility in the markets.

It was in the paper this morning that the ONLY pollster who predicted the Tory
win in the GE has predicted that the LEAVE will win.

MxK
It does cheer me up but I wish the polls actually meant much.

I can't believe you sometimes Haystack , you put up endless polls showing this, that and the other , then say " I wish the polls actually meant much ."

H/T to gain across the road..




Revenge of the betrayed: Abandoned by the metropolitan political elite, their lives utterly changed by mass migration, Labour's northern heartlands could swing it for Brexit


By ROBERT HARDMAN FOR THE DAILY MAIL

PUBLISHED: 00:46, 11 June 2016 | UPDATED: 06:36, 11 June 2016



Wendy McDonald is worried that the referendum is stirring up what she calls ‘the r-word’.

As the daughter of a man who sailed to Britain on the Empire Windrush — the ship that brought the first postwar immigrants from the Caribbean in 1948 — any prospect of racial tensions appals her.

But you won’t hear Wendy blaming Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson or others in the Brexit campaign. In her opinion, the culprit is obvious: the European Union and the Remain brigade. ‘It’s the EU that breeds this resentment,’ she tells me. ‘I’m afraid it is creating racism. The sooner we’re out of it, the better.’

Having worked in social housing in the Greater Manchester area for 20 years, Wendy says she knows only too well how community cohesion is eroded when, for example, a family from Eastern Europe gets given a terrace house by the council ahead of a local lad who is left to ‘sleep outside Asda’ night after night.

‘That’s not a racist issue for me. It’s a simple question of how we are supposed to carry on letting in more and more people if we can’t house them all.’
It is a view shared by huge numbers of voters just like Wendy who live here in a part of Britain which many believe is fast driving this country towards the EU exit — the Labour heartlands of the North.

These are people who don’t just feel patronised. When it comes to their concerns about Europe, they feel disenfranchised. For there is no other part of the country where you find voters quite so divorced from the people elected to represent them on this key issue.

Yesterday, former Labour leader Ed Miliband gave a perfect illustration of the chasm between the parliamentary party and so many of its ordinary supporters. Speaking on Radio 4, he refused to acknowledge a link between immigration and public services, insisting: ‘I don’t believe it’s immigration causing the problems in the NHS. I believe it is Jeremy Hunt [the Health Secretary] and David Cameron.’
And let’s not forget that Jeremy Corbyn has been criticised for blocking any mention of immigration in Labour’s referendum leaflet.

Out in the real world, meanwhile, the other EU referendum debate continues. It is a debate among people who aren’t listening to the views of the CBI or international panjandrums such as Christine Lagarde of the IMF or the Governor of the Bank of England, and who didn’t watch the latest two-hour TV debate because they had better things to do, like trying to find a GP.

It is a debate among millions of working-class people who don’t care what political party leaders have to say because, in their view, Westminster long ago forfeited their trust

They see an ivory-towered elite telling them that the debate should be about the economy and not immigration — on pain of being labelled ‘racist’, as Labour frontbencher Pat Glass called an entire Derbyshire village the other day — when the voters themselves regard these key issues as one and the same thing.

And they certainly don’t see themselves as anti-immigrant.

That is hardly surprising. For here is a crucial point: many of them are from immigrant families themselves.

It’s enough to make a Hampstead liberal weep. But therein lies the problem.
After years of chattering among their own ilk around the scrubbed pine dinner tables of North London, the metropolitan grandees of the Labour Party have simply ignored the grumbles of their tiresome provincial supporters on one of the key issues of our age.

Only now are they are starting to realise their mistake. As former Labour Cabinet minister Andy Burnham put it this week: ‘We have definitely been far too much Hampstead and not enough Hull in recent times and we need to change that.’ But is it too late?


Two famously outspoken Labour MPs, Dennis Skinner and John Mann, clearly think so because, yesterday, both finally announced that they were declaring for Brexit.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3636164/Revenge-betrayed-Abandoned-metropolitan-political-elite-lives-utterly-changed-mass-migration-Labour-s-northern-heartlands-swing-Brexit.html#ixzz4BFXTRm00

And your'e a fake are you not Freda , all your'e worried about is the Markets , last week you were bleating about the odds for Remain and loving it .How fickle are you by the way , make light of anyone who differs from you . Such a disappointing man .

Vicky and Manuel,

The market movement is a just a reflection of possible expectancies.

But little Cynic is more interesting in disparaging anybody who holds different opinion.

A perfect little tory sycophant.