Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

yes indeed it is, now where have I heard that before.........?

Lord Levy on This Week afterwards was a little more balanced. The only problem he ignored the causes of the problem. But at least he was moderate in his opinion.
He will be glad to know that my opinion of him, which had been pretty low, was raised a little. 8-)

Kaufman was at one time very pro-Zionist, but has modified his position and prepared to criticise the Zionist extremist groups.

Agree with you on Lord Levy.

Perhaps you could try the balance thing as well Fred. Sure you could drag up plenty of articles from Arabs criticising Hamas if you've got the time this afternoon.

Isaacs, I give you permission to do that.

You seem to find the arguments to support your position on the Ongoing Murder and Carnage more easily than I can.

When there are negotiations this time, I hope there will be steps to enforce Israel to fulfil its previous contracts. , This could be using military force if necessary.

I thought you wanted some balance Fred as per Mr Levy. Not much of that in your comments so doing my part to even things up. Both sides are at fault and both can stop short-term. Longer-term bit tricky if Gaza run by Hamas, Hamas continues to want to destroy Israel and see all Jews regardless of nationality as legitimate targets and Hamas keeps getting its hand on rockets. Personally I think we should just ban religion (if only that was possible). Fairy tales that are the root cause of so many problems.

.Isaacs, Probably we agree more than disagree on the Middle East. And I accept the difficulties of a longterm solution.

I think Hamas and Iran are being rhetorical of in voicing or even believing that Israel and the Jews can or should be eradicated.

Go back to Winston Churchill war period, when the the only good German, was a dead one. This phrase then repeatedly used on the streets.

It was symbolic and rabble rousing, but useful for uniting the "people of this country" I think we are now at peace with Germany and we will continue to be so.

Look through the garbage bins of Tory and Labour party political election speeches. (Of what they think of one another or will do when in power.

Look at the extreme views (right and left) of some of our politicians when they were younger. Look at the allegiances of some of those politicians when at Universities etc.

However, I do feel that there was an abuse of the Palestinians, by the major powers, in permitting the setting up and recognising the state of Israel.

The State of Israel is fait accompli and has to be accepted as such. However, its use of military force to enforce its will, has to be curtailed.

Also, it has to respect the reasonable decision made at the United Nations. (For all its weaknesses, the latter is all that we have as place of mediation.)

I think the rocket firing into Israel, is an ongoing attempt by the Palestinians, to keep the eyes of the world focussed on the Palestinian problem. (The rockets are almost a symbolic plea, as they havent a real hope in hell of doing any real damage with them, which will be of any lasting account to Israel. (I am not trying to dismiss or ignore the Israeli wounded and dead.)


The reason for me continuing multiple posting, is to keep eyes focussed on the situation in the Middle East. If one doesnt do so it allows abuses to continue and also for those in power to continue to abuse those they are supposed to represent.

Also I hope and think there are moderates on both sides, who believe in a better future for both sides and they can be brought together.


I have been interested in "politics" since school days, but hold to allegiance to any party or "god", and appreciated more and more, Dave Allens sentiment May your god go with you!

Fred - you keep banging on with

I think the rocket firing into Israel, is an ongoing attempt by the Palestinians, to keep the eyes of the world focussed on the Palestinian problem. (The rockets are almost a symbolic plea, as they havent a real hope in hell of doing any real damage with them, which will be of any lasting account to Israel. (I am not trying to dismiss or ignore the Israeli wounded and dead.)

.... and what you say is complete bullshit. How much attention seeking do you think they need? Do you suppose that they continue to fire rockets when the whole world is already focussed on them because they still dont have enough attention?

And don't forget - they smuggle in enough propellant, explosives and cases for over three thousand rockets a year, and enough firepower to hold back one of the most advanced militaria in the world, yet in the same breath complain that they dont have enough food or medicine. I wonder who chooses what to smuggle in? I wonder who chooses between smuggling in the boxes marked rockets/AK47s/Mortars/Shells/Ammo/Mines/RPGs/Suicide belst and those marked food/medical supplies?

Gausie. still around.

What would be you choice in thier situation?

Lie down and die? Paint a cross on your back for target practice for Israel armaments

Don't limit yourself, try and think five years ahead!

I think they are still firing rockets to get attention. They know that if they stop then there might be a ceasefire. A ceasefire will reduce the newsworthiness of Hamas. They want to appear as the opressed. That is not to say that they are or are not opressed.

Haystack, Perhaps, you are right, but I think it may be awareness of "out of sight, out of mind".

Ie. allowing Israel to ignore its United Nations, obligations once again,

Gausie, Do you have investments in Arms Manufacturers at the moment?

Powerful lobby in America.

Could make some money, if you do?

Haystack

If they wanted to use them tactically, surely they'd only fire them when a ceasefire looked imminent. Instead they're firing them constantly - there's no way IMHO that this is to attract attention. They're firing because 'this is what we do'.

MP makes Israeli troops Nazi link

Friday, 16 January 2009


A prominent Jewish MP has compared the actions of Israeli troops with Nazis who forced his family to flee Poland.

Sir Gerald Kaufman, MP for Gorton in Manchester, drew the parallel during a Commons debate on the Gaza conflict.

Some members of the Jewish community - including his fellow MPs - have questioned the comments.

Louise Ellman MP, of the Labour Friends of Israel group, said the "dreadful" war in Gaza was not comparable to German actions in World War II.

Sir Gerald, who was brought up as an orthodox Jew and Zionist, told MPs: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town .. a German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

"The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip have passed 1,000, medical sources in Gaza say, but Israel has continued to resist international calls for a ceasefire.

The Israeli government says the action is necessary to prevent Hamas rocket attacks into southern Israel.

Labour MP Louise Ellman said: "The Nazis were about rounding up and exterminating people because of their origins.

"What we're witnessing in Gaza is a dreadful war and the Israelis are trying to stop Hamas continuing to launch rockets from Gaza, targeting and killing and murdering Israeli citizens."

But speaking to the BBC on Friday, Sir Gerald said he was standing by his comments.

"We had an IRA bomb in Manchester which destroyed much of the centre - we didn't send troops over to Belfast to murder 1,000 Catholics."

Sir Gerald said he had been a long-term supporter of Israel and has personally known many of its prime pinisters.

But he added: "I am not going to stand by and keep silent when the Israeli troops - with a dreadful government sending them there - kill large numbers of innocent people with no useful result at the end of it all."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7834487.stm

the speech... quite potent (as its from a Jew and, more importantly, for what he has gone through)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmhansrd.htm

Sir Gerald Kaufman (MP)
15.1.2009 in House of Commons

Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.

I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.

I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.

My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.

On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestiniansthe total is now 1, 000. She replied instantly that

"500 of them were militants."

That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah's previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat's death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said:

"You make peace by talking to your enemies."

However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.

It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis' real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.

On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestiniansthe total is now 1, 000. She replied instantly that

"500 of them were militants."

That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah's previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat's death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

I used to have a sneaking admiration for Gerald Kaufman, a weirdie leftie. But he finally lost his marbles years ago. Now he's completely lost the plot. Tony Benn without the intellect and charm. Sad.

MM

A weird remark?

And which bit of the plot do you think he has lost?

It seems to me he can merely no longer be a Jew himself and put his name to what Israelis (Jews) are doing.

Clearly now, the evidence is overwhelming that the Israeli response is a gross overreaction. And that despite Hamas sending a rocket an hour - even if they were sending rockets that often.

I've watched the video explaining how utterly horrible Hamas are. Indeed, they are totally and repulsively cruelly pathetic.

But it is time to pressure both sides to talk.

As Kaufman says, "....Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel......"

Exec

"The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel......"

No kidding?

don't confuse Palestinians with followers of Islam across the world, any more than Israelis with those who are Jewish of faith or mere chance of birth

Mightymicrobe and Gausie,


It is easy to disparage G Kaufman

(As I have just been above with a pseudonym.)

It doesnt alter the message he was giving.

The majority of the world interprets Israels present actions in Gaza as being MURDER and probable war crimes..

Try sitting down in an armchair reviewing the recent Middle East problems from the Zionist position. Then if you have the courage to do so, review the same problems from the Palestinian position.

Also consider the present situation again, if your immediate or extended family were in the killing zone or even doing the killing.

Try it!