Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

.

There is no legal precedent for Israel taking Palestinian land. The process is illegal and as such can have no legal precedent.

A study issued by the Israeli public committee against torture and the Palestinian prisoner society revealed that the Shin Bet security apparatus prevents 70 to 90 percent of Palestinian detainees from having access to an attorney.

According to this study that was published by Haaretz newspaper, out of 11,970 Palestinian prisoners the Shin Bet interrogated between 2000 and 2007, the numbers of those who were deprived of seeing lawyers ranged between 8, 379 to 10, 773.

Maya Rosenfeld, the author of the study, stated that during prolonged periods when prisoners are kept from meeting with lawyers, the Shin Bet utilizes interrogation methods that run contrary to international law, Israeli laws and Israeli commitments to avoid such methods.

Among these interrogation methods are tying prisoners for a long time to a chair with their hands behind the back, sleep deprivation, threats usually of harming family members, humiliation and being kept for long periods in unsanitary cells.

There is no legal precedent for Israel taking Palestinian land. The process is illegal and as such can have no legal precedent. ..... FFS!! you repeat and repeat and repeat (and also contradict yourself quite regularly) the same dull mantra .....

to paraphrase (something of which you are totally incapable) ..... you stated very clearly that the american indians were now legally disenfranchised by the white man because it happened so long ago ..... you now try to say (again and again and again) that the passing of time does not create legality ......

you also claim that the land in question is palestinian because "the palestinians have lived there many 100s of years" ...... given that the jews have lived on that land for about 3,000 years, where does that leave your supposed logic?

.

I didn't state that the american indians were now legally disenfranchised by the white man because it happened so long ago. Where did I say that? In fact I would want the areas that the Indians occupied to be returned to them, but that is impratical as they are all now dead. Thevery least should be to compensate them. The main difference is there are Palestinians alive now who have had their land taken as far back as 1949 and ealier. They are also losing their houses and land every day now.

No the Israelis have not lived there for 3,000 years. Some of their ancestors did live there 3,000 year ago, but only a handful. The bulk of the immigrants to Israel are from Europe and they have no descendant link as they are almost all converts to Judaeism and came from Eastern europe and Asia.

If I converted to Judaeism I would gain the right to live in Israel on land stolen from the Palestinians.

try posts 3916 (me) and 3919 (you) ..... no doubt you'll say i have misrepresented your implication, but i doubt if others (than fred) would concur

All I said in that post was "The problems with the American indians occured hundreds of years ago." I did not discuss whether the indians were legally disenfranchised by the white man because it happened so long ago. I don't think that anyway. I just said that it was too long ago to be relevant. We are disussing something that is going on today, tomorrow and in the lifetime of the people involved.

There were more than 1 million refugees that Israel forced from their land between 1949 and now. With their descendants that is now 4.6 million. Without the right of return and the return of their land, there will be no solution. It is not just Hamas that insists on the return of refugees. It is also the PLO and the Palestinian Authority who have been conducting peace talks. There is a growing call to deligitimise Israel from many parts of the world. It is a useful tool to isolate Israel as is the growing boycott of their goods.

Richard, I do wonder why you bother to attempt rational debate with Haystack; he has demonstrated on many occasions when proven wrong he ignores the correction and scoots off on another tangent. Impossible to have a sensible discussion.

i agree and shan't bother now the markets have re-opened - as has my office, or at least for me single-handed! ..... better things to do, but he really is such a total baboon

It is easy to attack the messenger when you don't agree with the message. I make a point of not attacking any of the poster on here. It is too easy for them to resort to abuse instead of addressing the real problems. I have seen nothing so far to pursuade me that there will be a peaceful solution that does not involved Israel return huge areas of land. Many groups would like to have Israel pull back to 1949 borders. That is probably unrealistic. Hamas does not go that far. It wants 1967 borders, the withdrawl of all settlements and the return of refugees.

N,

ITLOTB - I hear what you say.

Are you certain about that?

There are medications for overcoming this sort of problem!

8-)
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Cynic,


Posting 3944 of 3951
Let's hope that the Israeli government stops settlement expansion and that is reciprocated by moves on the Palestinian side. .... couldn't agree more, especially with the first part ..... israel's continued aggressive expansion is intentionally highly provocative and immediately torpedoes any moves towards peace in the region .... of course, america could, if its gov't had the balls, stop all sorts of massive aid that is poured into israel, without harming israel's ability to defend itself .... that might well concentrate a few minds and at least lend real teeth to the inane political claptrap
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Sometimes you worry me, by appearing quite sensible.

I think as you appear to state, America could be more effective and pull the strings a little tighter on Israel.

But, unfortunately, the Jewish political lobby in the USA is as mislead, as many of the Israeli administration are.
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PS.
There are obvious periods in recent history, when there has been a return of sovereignty back to national and cultural groups.

The obvious period was the breakup of the Soviet Union and the return of rule and government to the indigenous people of the previously annexed countries. E.g. Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Slovakia, etc..

(History, can be repeated in similar ways and various models.)

(Have a look at Alsace its varying borders.)

=============================

This suggests that changes and possibly solutions can be found.

The questions I would like answered are:

1) Which groups of the population gets disproportionately killed or maimed in the hostilities and conflicts?

2) Which groups within the borders of the conflict gain the most by not resolving the problems?

3) Which groups outside the borders of the conflict gain the most by not resolving the problems?

4) What advantages are there for the mass of the populations within the areas following cessation of hostilities?

(Think of Iraq and consider whether the population as a whole has benefited from the murders carry out in the name of peace by Blair and Bush.

Consider whether Blair has benefited from their actions?)

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Haystack

It is easy to attack the messenger when you don't agree with the message. A valid point under normal circumstances. But I'm afraid that in your case, you as the messenger seem every bit as confused as the message you seek to convey.

Perhaps you could rethink your message and try to lay it out clearly, one point at a time, each with reasoned and unbiased evidence-based argument?

The parrot says "I make a point of not attacking any of the poster on here"

In post 3904 he said, "The only rabdi dog here is IOTLOTB"

As usual, you distort, twist and outright lie.

I was flattered, though LOL

I don't regard you as a poster as you never have anything to contribute. You are more like something extraneous such as belly button fluff.

Address the question instead of hiding behind what you quaintly think are insults, even if they are faintly amusing.
Please note that I will desist from suggesting the parrot is overly familiar with belly button fluff because he is constituted from such material from the neck up.
It certainly isn't because he's a naval doctor.

or even navel! ..... f'ed it up didn't ya

No, I found that in a Christmas cracker, so it must be right ;)
The girl said what do you do and the guy replied I'm a Naval doctor.
Oooh, she said, I didn't know you doctors were so specialised.

outsourced printing - can't imagine where!

I'll leave the f'ing up to freddie no brains and his intellectually inferior feathered friend.