Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

questionable what he does actually believe, other than believing that he has an absolute democratic right not to vote and then to complain about everything thereafter

C+P

Dumbo, Manuel and Vicky,

I am able to recognise beliefs and bigotry and generally can distinguish them from informed and factual opinion.

Again, I am well use to critical self-analysis and even introspection and modify my opinions and actions in response to critical analysis and discussion.

Perhaps, the latter approach would be useful for yourselves, but I doubt you would give much validity to the opinion of others unless they coincide with your own.

Manuel,

If you read back to before some of my posts before the referendum you will see that I thought “out” vote simply put was a “dumb” vote, especially when one considered the probable difficulties and costs of negotiations and renegotiations of rules, laws, contracts, boundaries, responsibilities etc. made or agreed to, over the last 45years.

From your recent postings, you seem to be catching up and realising the consequences.

(Also, consider the costs of attempting to fortify little england to prevent the unknown numbers of immigrants wishing to enter the country. It is not appealing, but of course, you are welcome to your opinions.

(Hear they are starting to build smuggling tunnels between NI and SI ready for the exit, unless they devolve as a whole.)

Cameron, Hay’s and your messiah, did a wonderful job and foresaw what his political shenanigans would produce.

But why does the public have to pay his bills?

What esteemed company I keep , thank you jimmy and cynic .

Curmudgeon comes to mind. Or whining sourpuss if you like plain english. But if he is ignored, he will die from lack of oxygen.

i see FOSF still tries to tell me how i should have voted
presumptuous pedagogue that he is

regrettably, and by a very small narrow margin, i came to the conclusion that it was a boil that needed to be lanced as failing to do so - ie by remaining in - nothing could or would have been achieved
others felt differently as was their prerogative

Bull ---,

Comes to mind.

You are entitled to vote as wish, or not to vote at all.

But, it would seem to many it is easier to modify the rules from within a club than blow the bloody doors off it.

I don't think that there were many who wished to remain in the EU did not realise it had some faults, and more were often unhappy because of some of its "directives" etc..

I only hope those remaining in the EU will be more sensible in the negotiations than some of the Exiters, at the moment are proposing to be.

Although, for years it has been recognised that the UK has only been half in the EU and its new independence will diminish it influence on international political decisions.

-====-=

If we had not voted out there would be absolutely no chance of any reforms of any sort , so that is poppycock .The EU or Merkel sorry would have been cock a hoop and pushed on relentlessly with her plans , make no mistake .

your view, to which many subscribed, but not mine to which even more subscribed .....

of course i did actually put my mark on a ballot paper whereas it is 97% certain that you did not

within both camps, there would have been a variety of reasons why they chose to vote as they did - you know; that odd procedure where you put your mark on a ballot paper

pompous pedagogue that you are, constantly deride anyone who does not subscribe to your view .... thus why i have revived FOSF for you

But, it would seem to many it is easier to modify the rules from within a club than blow the bloody doors off it.
---------------

Just how thick are you Fred ? they wouldn't play ball you know that . This way the whole union will modify mark my words .

Oh and by the way another Syrian has blown himself up in Germany ,i'm surprised you havn't been here to defend him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36880758

oldish news ..... that happened last night

Run of the mill in Germany these days .

When these terrorists blow themselves up, which of the bits that are left do you feel most sorry for?

The rules and regulations etc. have been reviewed for the last 45years.

Do you own checking.

Even Maggie the got her ways sometimes.

-=-==-=

Dumbo,

He doesn't need me to defend him.

No he doesn't he's in many pieces , just hope he didn't take any Germans with him ,although that wouldn't be your first concern would it .

I am sceptical whether that it is yours either.

Looks like the French aren't taking any crap , two hostage takers shot in Rouen church , dead .

Theresa May is preparing a Brexit fudge which will disappoint everyone - Telegraph

The outcome of the referendum was the result of decades of hostility towards the European Union. Some people, like Nigel Farage and Daniel Hannan, built profiles and careers and out of articulating their disappointment. An industry of complaint helped to change the course of Britain’s future last month.

Brexit means Brexit, and we are going to make a success of it. Theresa May

So there can be no surprise that organisations like “More United” are springing up to campaign to remain. What is surprising is that Eurosceptics are telling Remainers to just get over the result. Some demand that the 48 per cent accept Brexit in a way that they never accepted the European Union.

That is just one example of how bitterly divided the referendum has left Britain. But it's also left us led by a woman whose approach to Europe must leave both sides fearing a disappointing resolution. As Theresa May travels to Northern Ireland to rule out the return of border checks between UK and Ireland, both sides in the referendum should see the signs that almost nobody will get what they want from Brexit.

Theresa May’s enigmatic approach to Europe has made it difficult to work out what her Brexit preferences might be. While she backed both the European Arrest Warrant and remaining in the European Union, in April she called for Britain to abandon the European Convention on Human Rights, adherence to which has recently been suspended by President Erdoğan as he crushes dissent in Turkey. She also stated that “regardless of the referendum… we should leave”, remarks interpreted as signposting her cool relationship with Europe.

On the other hand, only seven days after the referendum result, while launching her campaign Ms May ditched withdrawal from the ECHR, claiming that it “divides people”. Was May’s criticism of the Convention ever more than careful signalling? In April she praised the idea of a “true British” Bill of Rights, an idea still compatible with membership of the ECHR, but we have yet to hear anything from the Prime Minister about where this now stands. If it is abandoned, then we can safely conclude that it was an exercise on positioning.

Meanwhile, Britain’s abandonment of presidency of the European Council in 2017 seems, on the face of it, like a great thing if you’re keen for Britain to swiftly depart from the European Union. We’re relinquishing our turn at the helm to “focus on Brexit”, which sounds excitingly immediate. Yet we have been in no great hurry to trigger Article 50 so far. Whenever we do, we will still be a full member of the European Union throughout the second half of 2017, when we would have had the presidency. Determining the agenda of the European Council might have helped Britain to steer conversations in Europe in areas that are still bound to be significant to us in the next two years. At best this move looks like tokenism. At worst it is the abandonment of a bargaining position that would have aided Britain in asserting influence in our negotiations to leave. Neither Brexiteers or Remainers should be happy that we’ve handed back this opportunity.

Indeed, if you really wanted to kick Brexit into the taller grass, you’d insist that the triggering of Article 50 would be delayed until Scotland were on board with a “UK approach” to Brexit. Nicola Sturgeon leads a part of the UK which voted to remain, she still believes that remain is the best course of action, and she is hardly likely to rush to agree on a plan for Brexit. Ten days ago, May met Sturgeon in Ediburgh and said exactly this. No rush to leave the European Union, but rather a commitment in the words of Sturgeon afterwards that the British government was “open and flexible” to options.

Furthermore, May is now also promising to engage with Northern Ireland’s devolved administration on negotiations with the EU. So while Brexit may mean Brexit, it seems increasingly obvious that her personal commitment to the Union is likely to trump the demands of Brexiteers. Keeping the Union intact, and preserving open borders between Northern Ireland and Ireland, may yet water down Brexit to something unacceptable to many who voted for it.

With a reluctant Remainer in Downing street and a reluctant Brexiteer in the FCO, there can be little wonder that there are rumours of plans to give us temporary exemption from freedom of movement while protecting single market access. Our Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary acknowledge the importance of the single market. The Europeans may try to sell us a deal that looks interesting in the short term, but in which fetters to free movement have a sunset clause. We’d lose influence in Europe for a few years of border control: a compromise that might keep the Union together, but to the dissatisfaction of both Brexiteers and Remainers.

Such an offer would give an obvious basis for a second referendum: nobody could have anticipated that voting to leave meant full access to the single market, free movement on pause, and no voting rights for Britain. Of course Theresa May didn’t want this problem. Her comments and actions to date clearly signal her willingness to compromise, and her skill at talking tough with the EU while acting soft. The outcome of her efforts will go too far for Remainers and nowhere near far enough for many Brexiteers. We may be divided, but the signs are that Brexit will soon unite us all in disappointment.

The UK Government is to open three new offices across the US to promote British business and develop economic ties following the vote to leave the EU.

The Department for International Trade said the cities of Minneapolis, Raleigh and San Diego have been chosen because of their economic productivity and established research and development centres.

4748 - the hardline eurosceptics will be unhappy almost regardless of any deal that might be done, though it could be argued that the remainers should have got off their bums and voted if they wanted to win

nevertheless, while TM has to walk a tightrope, i think her endeavours to establish a consensus not only makes sense but will actually help to strike a better and properly balanced deal

as i have written before, in a strange way, the uk now has a much stronger hand than before the referendum as the eu hierarchy is terrified of the potential domino effect if uk is not somehow accommodated ........ a tricky path for both sides

You could argue that there were both remain voters and leave voters who
didn't get off their backsides and go and vote, though LEAVE voters were
more determined to vote.

But when the registration site went down with just 10 minutes before cut off
time, and then the government giving two extra days for those who left it till
the last minute to register, allowing two million extra (remain)voters , most likely
dragged out of every college/university common room that the remain side could
muster.

So If it were not for those extra two days the LEAVE margin would have been greater.